The infrastructure and content of the transcriptions have taken hundreds of hours by one person. You can contribute to the software and hosting used for Reflectoria, the Christopher Hitchens Facebook page, and this website by buying a coffee or subscribing on Facebook.
Date of Debate: October 7, 2007
Well, thank you, Georgetown. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming. Thank you, Michael, for that suspiciously terse introduction, which of all the introductions I’ve heard to myself is certainly the most recent.
Thank you seriously to the Ethics and Public Policy Center for your work, for conceiving this idea, for encouraging me to do it, for bringing us Dr. McGrath all the way from our common alma mater of Oxford, and for the regular seminars that you may not know that Michael does all the time on these matters of faith versus reason, which is after all the ground on which we’re met this evening.
I always come before events like this with antagonists like Dr. McGrath with a slight sense, a very slight sense, I hope it doesn’t sound self-pitying, of inequality. My views are, if I say it for myself, tolerably well advertised. And if they’re not, it’s partly your fault.
Because what I say is fairly intelligible, very plainly stated. You know what I think, if you care to find out.
When I debate with Jews and Muslims and Christians, I very often find, I say, well, do you really believe there was a virgin birth? Do you really believe in a Genesis creation? Do you really believe in bodily resurrection?
And I get a sort of Monty Python eye. Well, there’s a little bit of metaphorical really. I’m not sure, and I’m determined to find out this evening, which line on this my antagonist does take. And I want you to notice, and I want you to test him on it.
Because I think it’s fair. And I’m going to talk to him and to you as if he did represent the Christian faith. I can’t do all three monotheisms tonight. I may get a whack at the other two in the course of the discussion.
I can only really do his. I’m going to assume that it means something to him and that it’s not just a humanist metaphysics. And I think I’m entitled to that assumption.
The main thing I want to dispute this evening, because I’m either drowning in time with 20 minutes, it’s either too much or too little, is this.
Is religion moral?
You hear it very often said by people of a vague faith that, well, it may not be the case that religion is metaphysically true.
Its figures and its stories may be legendary or dwell on the edge of myth, prehistoric.
Its truth claims may be laughable. We have better explanations for the origins both of our cosmos and our species now, so much better so, in fact, that had they been available to begin with, religion would never have taken root.
No one would now go back to the stage when we didn’t have any real philosophy.
We only had mythology. When we thought we lived on a flat planet or when we thought that our planet was circulated by the sun instead of the other way around. When we didn’t know there were microorganisms as part of creation and that they were more powerful than us and had dominion over us rather than we then.
When we were fearful the infancy of our species. We wouldn’t have taken up theism if we’d known now what we did then, but allow for all that. Allow for all that. You still have to credit religion with being the source of ethics and morals.
Where would we get these from if it weren’t for faith? I think if in the time I’ve got, I think that’s the position I most want to undermine. I don’t believe that it’s true that religion is moral or ethical. I certainly don’t believe, of course, that any of its explanations about the origin of our species or the cosmos or its ultimate destiny are true either. In fact, I think most of these have been conclusively, utterly discredited.
But I’ll deal with the remaining claim. Is it moral? Again, I can only do Christianity this evening.
Is it moral to believe that your sins, yours and mine, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, can be forgiven by the punishment of another person? Is it ethical to believe that?
I would submit that the doctrine of vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral. I might, if I wished, if I knew any of you, you were my friends, or even if I didn’t know you, but I just loved the idea of you. Compulsory love is another sickly element of Christianity, by the way.
But suppose I could say, “Look, you’re in debt. I’ve just made a lot of money out of a God-bashing book. I’ll pay your debts for you. Maybe you’ll pay me back someday, but for now I can get you out of trouble.”
I could say, if I really loved someone who’d been sentenced to prison, if I could find a way of saying I’d serve your sentence, I’d try and do it. I could do what Sidney Carton does in A Tale of Two Cities. If you like, I’m very unlikely to do this unless you’ve been incredibly sweet to me, I’ll take your place on the scaffold. But I can’t take away your responsibilities. I can’t forgive what you did.
I can’t say you didn’t do it. I can’t make you wash clean. The name for that in primitive Middle Eastern society was scapegoating.
You pile the sins of the tribe on a goat, you drive that goat into the desert to die of thirst and hunger, and you think you’ve taken away the sins of the tribe.
A positively immoral doctrine that abolishes the concept of personal responsibility on which all ethics and all morality must depend. It has a further implication. I’m told that I have to have a share in this human sacrifice, even though it took place long before I was born.
I had no say in it happening. I wasn’t consulted about it.
Had I been present, I would have been bound to do my best to stop the public torture and execution of an eccentric preacher.
I would do the same even now.
No, no. I’m implicated in it. I myself drove in the nails. I was present at Calvary. It confirms the original filthy sin in which I was conceived and born the sin of Adam and Genesis. Again, this may sound a mad belief, but it is the Christian belief. Well, it’s here that we find something very sinister about monotheism and about religious practice in general. It is incipiently at least, and I think often explicitly, totalitarian. I have no say in this. I am born under a celestial dictatorship which I could not have had any hand in choosing.
I don’t put myself under its government.
I am told that it can watch me while I sleep.
The problem of The New Testament
I’m told that it can convict me of, here’s the definition of totalitarianism, thought crime for what I think I may be convicted and condemned, and that if I commit a right action it’s only to evade this punishment, and if I commit a wrong action I’m going to be caught up, not just with punishment in life for what I’ve done, which often follows axiomatically, but no. But even after I’m dead, in the Old Testament, gruesome as it is, recommending as it is of genocide, racism, tribalism, slavery, genital mutilation, and the displacement and destruction of others, terrible as the Old Testament gods are, they don’t promise to punish the dead.
There’s no talk of torturing you after the earth has closed over the Amalekites. Only when gentle Jesus, meek and mild, makes his appearance are those who won’t accept the message told they must depart into everlasting fire.
Is this morality? Is this ethics? I submit not only is it not, not only does it come with the false promise of vicarious redemption, but it is the origin of the totalitarian principle which has been such a burden and shame to our species for so long. I further think that it undermines us in our most essential integrity.
It dissolves our obligation to live and witness in truth.
Which of us would say that we will believe something because it might cheer us up, or tell our children that something was true because it might dry their eyes? Which of us indulges in wishful thinking? Who really cares about the pursuit of truth at all costs and at all hazards?
Can it not be said, do you not in fact hear it said repeatedly about religion and by the religious themselves that, well, it may not be really true, the stories may be fairy tales, the history may be dubious, but it provides consolation.
Can anyone hear themselves saying this or have it said of them without some kind of embarrassment, without the concession that thinking here is directly wishful? That yes, it would be nice if you could throw your sins and your responsibilities on someone else and have them dissolve, but it’s not true and it’s not morally sound. And that’s the second ground of my indictment.
Michael, you will tell me when I’m trespassing on the time of Dr. McGrath, won’t you?
On our basic integrity, knowing right from wrong and being able to choose a right action over a wrong one, I think one must repudiate the claim that one doesn’t have this moral discrimination innately, that no, it must come only from the agency of a celestial dictatorship, which one must love and simultaneously fear.
Lying to children
What is it like? I’ve never tried it.
I’ve never been a cleric. What is it like to lie to children for a living and tell them that they have an authority that they must love, compulsory love, what a grotesque idea, and be terrified of at the same time? What’s that like, I want to know?
And that we don’t have an innate sense of right and wrong, the children don’t have an innate sense of fairness and decency, which of course they do. What is it like, I can personalize it to this extent. My mother’s Jewish ancestors are told that until they got to Sinai, they’d been dragging themselves around the desert under the impression that adultery, murder, theft, and perjury were all fine.
They get to Mount Sinai only to be told there’s not kosher after all. I’m sorry. Excuse me. We must have more self-respect than that for ourselves and for others.
Of course the story is a fiction. It’s a fabrication exposed conclusively by Israeli archeology.
Nothing of the sort ever took place, but suppose we take the metaphor. It’s an insult.
It’s an insult to us. It’s an insult to our deepest integrity. No, if we’d believed the perjury, murder, and theft were all right, we wouldn’t have got as far as the foot of Mount Sinai or anywhere else. Now we’re told what we have to believe.
The indifference of a creator
This is coming now to the question of whether or not science, reason, and religion are compatible or I would rather say reconcilable.
The late great Stephen Jay Gould said that he believed they were non-overlapping magisteria.
You can be both a believer and a person of faith. Sitting in front of me is a very distinguished, extremely distinguished scholar, Francis Collins, helped us to unlock the Human Genome Project, who is himself a believer. I’d love to hear from him. I hope we will hear from him.
I don’t believe he says that his discoveries in the genome convinced him of the truth of religion. He holds it, as it were, independently. I hope I do you no wrong, sir, in phrasing it like that. Here’s why I, a non-scientist, will say that I think it’s radically irreconcilable. I’d rather say than incompatible. I’ve taken the best advice I can on how long Homo Sapiens has been on the planet.
Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, many others, and many of the discrepancies in theirs, reckon it’s not more than 250,000 years, quarter of a million years. It’s not less either. I think it’s roughly accepted. I think, sir, you wouldn’t disagree.
100,000 is the lowest I’ve heard. Actually, I was about to say, again, not to sound too Jewish, I’ll take 100,000. I only need 100,000.
Call it 100. For 100,000 years, Homo Sapiens was born usually, not usually, but very often, dying in the process or killing its mother in the process. Life expectancy, probably not much more than 20, 25 years. Dying probably of the teeth after that, very agonizingly, near to the brain as they are, or of hunger, or of microorganisms that they didn’t know existed, or of events such as volcanic or tsunami or earthquake types that would have been wholly terrifying and mysterious, as well as some turf wars over women, land, property, food, other matters.
You can imagine it for yourself what the first few tens of thousands of years were like. We like to think, learning a little bit in the process, and certainly having gods all the way, worshipping bears fairly early on, I can sort of see why.
Sometimes worshipping other human beings, big mistake, I’m coming back to that if I have time. This and that and the other thing. But exponentially perhaps improving, though in some areas of the world very nearly completely dying out, a bitter struggle all along.
Call it 100,000 years.
According to the Christian faith, heaven watches this with folded arms for 98,000 years and then decides it’s time to intervene.
And the best way of doing that would be a human sacrifice in primitive Palestine, where the news would take so long to spread that it still hasn’t penetrated very large parts of the world.
And that would be our redemption of the human species. Now I submit to you ladies and gentlemen that that is what I’ve just said, which you must believe to believe the Christian revelation is not possible to believe, as well as not decent to believe. Why is it not possible? Because a virgin birth is more likely than that. A resurrection is more likely than that.
And because if it was true, it would have two further implications.
It would have to mean that the designer of this plan was unbelievably lazy and inept, or unbelievably callous and cruel and indifferent and capricious.
And that is the case with every argument for design and every argument for revelation and intervention that has ever been made.
But it’s now conclusively so because of the superior knowledge that we’ve won for ourselves by an endless struggle to assert our reason, our science, our humanity, our extension of knowledge against the priests, against the rabbis, against the mullahs who have always wanted us to consider ourselves as made from dust, or from a clot of blood according to the Quran, or as the Jews are supposed to pray every morning, at least not female or gentile. And here’s my final point, because I think it’s coming to it.
The final insult that religion delivers to us, the final poison it jets into our system, it appeals both to our meanness, our self-centeredness and our solipsism, and to our masochism.
Worthless to priceless
In other words, it’s sadomasochistic.
I’ll put it like this. You’re a clot of blood, you’re a piece of mud, you’re lucky to be alive. God fashioned you for his convenience even though you’re born in filth and sin.
And even though every religion there’s ever been is distinguished principally by the idea that we should be disgusted by our own sexuality.
Name me a religion that does not play upon that fact. So you’re lucky to be here, originally sinful and covered in shame and filth as you are. You’re a wretched creature, but take heart.
The universe is designed with you in mind.
And heaven has a plan for you.
Ladies and gentlemen, I close by saying, I can’t believe there is a thinking person here who does not realize that our species would begin to grow to something like its full height if it left this childishness behind, if it emancipated itself from this sinister, childish nonsense.
And I now commit you to the good Dr. McGrath. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Georgetown. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming. Thank you, Michael, for that suspiciously terse introduction, which of all the introductions I’ve heard to myself is certainly the most recent.
Thank you seriously to the Ethics and Public Policy Center for your work, for conceiving this idea, for encouraging me to do it, for bringing us Dr. McGrath all the way from our common alma mater of Oxford, and for the regular seminars that you may not know that Michael does all the time on these matters of faith versus reason, which is after all the ground on which we’re met this evening.
I always come before events like this with antagonists like Dr. McGrath with a slight sense, a very slight sense, I hope it doesn’t sound self-pitying, of inequality. My views are, if I say it for myself, tolerably well advertised. And if they’re not, it’s partly your fault.
Because what I say is fairly intelligible, very plainly stated. You know what I think, if you care to find out.
When I debate with Jews and Muslims and Christians, I very often find, I say, well, do you really believe there was a virgin birth? Do you really believe in a Genesis creation? Do you really believe in bodily resurrection?
And I get a sort of Monty Python eye. Well, there’s a little bit of metaphorical really. I’m not sure, and I’m determined to find out this evening, which line on this my antagonist does take. And I want you to notice, and I want you to test him on it.
Because I think it’s fair. And I’m going to talk to him and to you as if he did represent the Christian faith. I can’t do all three monotheisms tonight. I may get a whack at the other two in the course of the discussion.
I can only really do his. I’m going to assume that it means something to him and that it’s not just a humanist metaphysics. And I think I’m entitled to that assumption.
The main thing I want to dispute this evening, because I’m either drowning in time with 20 minutes, it’s either too much or too little, is this.
Is religion moral?
You hear it very often said by people of a vague faith that, well, it may not be the case that religion is metaphysically true.
Its figures and its stories may be legendary or dwell on the edge of myth, prehistoric.
Its truth claims may be laughable. We have better explanations for the origins both of our cosmos and our species now, so much better so, in fact, that had they been available to begin with, religion would never have taken root.
No one would now go back to the stage when we didn’t have any real philosophy.
We only had mythology. When we thought we lived on a flat planet or when we thought that our planet was circulated by the sun instead of the other way around. When we didn’t know there were microorganisms as part of creation and that they were more powerful than us and had dominion over us rather than we then.
When we were fearful the infancy of our species. We wouldn’t have taken up theism if we’d known now what we did then, but allow for all that. Allow for all that. You still have to credit religion with being the source of ethics and morals.
Where would we get these from if it weren’t for faith? I think if in the time I’ve got, I think that’s the position I most want to undermine. I don’t believe that it’s true that religion is moral or ethical. I certainly don’t believe, of course, that any of its explanations about the origin of our species or the cosmos or its ultimate destiny are true either. In fact, I think most of these have been conclusively, utterly discredited.
But I’ll deal with the remaining claim. Is it moral? Again, I can only do Christianity this evening.
Is it moral to believe that your sins, yours and mine, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, can be forgiven by the punishment of another person? Is it ethical to believe that?
I would submit that the doctrine of vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral. I might, if I wished, if I knew any of you, you were my friends, or even if I didn’t know you, but I just loved the idea of you. Compulsory love is another sickly element of Christianity, by the way.
But suppose I could say, “Look, you’re in debt. I’ve just made a lot of money out of a God-bashing book. I’ll pay your debts for you. Maybe you’ll pay me back someday, but for now I can get you out of trouble.”
I could say, if I really loved someone who’d been sentenced to prison, if I could find a way of saying I’d serve your sentence, I’d try and do it. I could do what Sidney Carton does in A Tale of Two Cities. If you like, I’m very unlikely to do this unless you’ve been incredibly sweet to me, I’ll take your place on the scaffold. But I can’t take away your responsibilities. I can’t forgive what you did.
I can’t say you didn’t do it. I can’t make you wash clean. The name for that in primitive Middle Eastern society was scapegoating.
You pile the sins of the tribe on a goat, you drive that goat into the desert to die of thirst and hunger, and you think you’ve taken away the sins of the tribe.
A positively immoral doctrine that abolishes the concept of personal responsibility on which all ethics and all morality must depend. It has a further implication. I’m told that I have to have a share in this human sacrifice, even though it took place long before I was born.
I had no say in it happening. I wasn’t consulted about it.
Had I been present, I would have been bound to do my best to stop the public torture and execution of an eccentric preacher.
I would do the same even now.
No, no. I’m implicated in it. I myself drove in the nails. I was present at Calvary. It confirms the original filthy sin in which I was conceived and born the sin of Adam and Genesis. Again, this may sound a mad belief, but it is the Christian belief. Well, it’s here that we find something very sinister about monotheism and about religious practice in general. It is incipiently at least, and I think often explicitly, totalitarian. I have no say in this. I am born under a celestial dictatorship which I could not have had any hand in choosing.
I don’t put myself under its government.
I am told that it can watch me while I sleep.
The problem of The New Testament
I’m told that it can convict me of, here’s the definition of totalitarianism, thought crime for what I think I may be convicted and condemned, and that if I commit a right action it’s only to evade this punishment, and if I commit a wrong action I’m going to be caught up, not just with punishment in life for what I’ve done, which often follows axiomatically, but no. But even after I’m dead, in the Old Testament, gruesome as it is, recommending as it is of genocide, racism, tribalism, slavery, genital mutilation, and the displacement and destruction of others, terrible as the Old Testament gods are, they don’t promise to punish the dead.
There’s no talk of torturing you after the earth has closed over the Amalekites. Only when gentle Jesus, meek and mild, makes his appearance are those who won’t accept the message told they must depart into everlasting fire.
Is this morality? Is this ethics? I submit not only is it not, not only does it come with the false promise of vicarious redemption, but it is the origin of the totalitarian principle which has been such a burden and shame to our species for so long. I further think that it undermines us in our most essential integrity.
It dissolves our obligation to live and witness in truth.
Which of us would say that we will believe something because it might cheer us up, or tell our children that something was true because it might dry their eyes? Which of us indulges in wishful thinking? Who really cares about the pursuit of truth at all costs and at all hazards?
Can it not be said, do you not in fact hear it said repeatedly about religion and by the religious themselves that, well, it may not be really true, the stories may be fairy tales, the history may be dubious, but it provides consolation.
Can anyone hear themselves saying this or have it said of them without some kind of embarrassment, without the concession that thinking here is directly wishful? That yes, it would be nice if you could throw your sins and your responsibilities on someone else and have them dissolve, but it’s not true and it’s not morally sound. And that’s the second ground of my indictment.
Michael, you will tell me when I’m trespassing on the time of Dr. McGrath, won’t you?
On our basic integrity, knowing right from wrong and being able to choose a right action over a wrong one, I think one must repudiate the claim that one doesn’t have this moral discrimination innately, that no, it must come only from the agency of a celestial dictatorship, which one must love and simultaneously fear.
Lying to children
What is it like? I’ve never tried it.
I’ve never been a cleric. What is it like to lie to children for a living and tell them that they have an authority that they must love, compulsory love, what a grotesque idea, and be terrified of at the same time? What’s that like, I want to know?
And that we don’t have an innate sense of right and wrong, the children don’t have an innate sense of fairness and decency, which of course they do. What is it like, I can personalize it to this extent. My mother’s Jewish ancestors are told that until they got to Sinai, they’d been dragging themselves around the desert under the impression that adultery, murder, theft, and perjury were all fine.
They get to Mount Sinai only to be told there’s not kosher after all. I’m sorry. Excuse me. We must have more self-respect than that for ourselves and for others.
Of course the story is a fiction. It’s a fabrication exposed conclusively by Israeli archeology.
Nothing of the sort ever took place, but suppose we take the metaphor. It’s an insult.
It’s an insult to us. It’s an insult to our deepest integrity. No, if we’d believed the perjury, murder, and theft were all right, we wouldn’t have got as far as the foot of Mount Sinai or anywhere else. Now we’re told what we have to believe.
The indifference of a creator
This is coming now to the question of whether or not science, reason, and religion are compatible or I would rather say reconcilable.
The late great Stephen Jay Gould said that he believed they were non-overlapping magisteria.
You can be both a believer and a person of faith. Sitting in front of me is a very distinguished, extremely distinguished scholar, Francis Collins, helped us to unlock the Human Genome Project, who is himself a believer. I’d love to hear from him. I hope we will hear from him.
I don’t believe he says that his discoveries in the genome convinced him of the truth of religion. He holds it, as it were, independently. I hope I do you no wrong, sir, in phrasing it like that. Here’s why I, a non-scientist, will say that I think it’s radically irreconcilable. I’d rather say than incompatible. I’ve taken the best advice I can on how long Homo Sapiens has been on the planet.
Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, many others, and many of the discrepancies in theirs, reckon it’s not more than 250,000 years, quarter of a million years. It’s not less either. I think it’s roughly accepted. I think, sir, you wouldn’t disagree.
100,000 is the lowest I’ve heard. Actually, I was about to say, again, not to sound too Jewish, I’ll take 100,000. I only need 100,000.
Call it 100. For 100,000 years, Homo Sapiens was born usually, not usually, but very often, dying in the process or killing its mother in the process. Life expectancy, probably not much more than 20, 25 years. Dying probably of the teeth after that, very agonizingly, near to the brain as they are, or of hunger, or of microorganisms that they didn’t know existed, or of events such as volcanic or tsunami or earthquake types that would have been wholly terrifying and mysterious, as well as some turf wars over women, land, property, food, other matters.
You can imagine it for yourself what the first few tens of thousands of years were like. We like to think, learning a little bit in the process, and certainly having gods all the way, worshipping bears fairly early on, I can sort of see why.
Sometimes worshipping other human beings, big mistake, I’m coming back to that if I have time. This and that and the other thing. But exponentially perhaps improving, though in some areas of the world very nearly completely dying out, a bitter struggle all along.
Call it 100,000 years.
According to the Christian faith, heaven watches this with folded arms for 98,000 years and then decides it’s time to intervene.
And the best way of doing that would be a human sacrifice in primitive Palestine, where the news would take so long to spread that it still hasn’t penetrated very large parts of the world.
And that would be our redemption of the human species. Now I submit to you ladies and gentlemen that that is what I’ve just said, which you must believe to believe the Christian revelation is not possible to believe, as well as not decent to believe. Why is it not possible? Because a virgin birth is more likely than that. A resurrection is more likely than that.
And because if it was true, it would have two further implications.
It would have to mean that the designer of this plan was unbelievably lazy and inept, or unbelievably callous and cruel and indifferent and capricious.
And that is the case with every argument for design and every argument for revelation and intervention that has ever been made.
But it’s now conclusively so because of the superior knowledge that we’ve won for ourselves by an endless struggle to assert our reason, our science, our humanity, our extension of knowledge against the priests, against the rabbis, against the mullahs who have always wanted us to consider ourselves as made from dust, or from a clot of blood according to the Quran, or as the Jews are supposed to pray every morning, at least not female or gentile. And here’s my final point, because I think it’s coming to it.
The final insult that religion delivers to us, the final poison it jets into our system, it appeals both to our meanness, our self-centeredness and our solipsism, and to our masochism.
Worthless to priceless
In other words, it’s sadomasochistic.
I’ll put it like this. You’re a clot of blood, you’re a piece of mud, you’re lucky to be alive. God fashioned you for his convenience even though you’re born in filth and sin.
And even though every religion there’s ever been is distinguished principally by the idea that we should be disgusted by our own sexuality.
Name me a religion that does not play upon that fact. So you’re lucky to be here, originally sinful and covered in shame and filth as you are. You’re a wretched creature, but take heart.
The universe is designed with you in mind.
And heaven has a plan for you.
Ladies and gentlemen, I close by saying, I can’t believe there is a thinking person here who does not realize that our species would begin to grow to something like its full height if it left this childishness behind, if it emancipated itself from this sinister, childish nonsense.
And I now commit you to the good Dr. McGrath. Thank you.
continue reading
Related Posts
00:00:00:00, 00:00:06:22, Fora TV, the world is thinking.
00:00:07:00, 00:00:14:22, Good afternoon. Welcome to this much anticipated
00:00:15:00, 00:00:22:18, event, a debate and discussion with Christopher
00:00:22:21, 00:00:29:23, hitchens and alistair McGrath on the topic “poison or cure? Religious belief in the
00:00:30:02, 00:00:33:01, modern world.” My name is Tom banchoff.
00:00:33:03, 00:00:36:23, I’m director of the Berkley center for religion,
00:00:37:02, 00:00:39:07, peace and world affairs here at Georgetown
00:00:39:10, 00:00:44:09, and the co-convener of this event, along with the ethics and public policy center.
00:00:44:11, 00:00:48:08, The Berkley center is part of a university-wide effort
00:00:48:11, 00:00:53:10, to make Georgetown a global leader in the interdisciplinary study of religion and in
00:00:53:12, 00:00:56:22, the promotion of interreligious understanding.
00:00:57:01, 00:01:00:10, This effort builds off our academic strengths,
00:01:00:13, 00:01:03:04, our location here in Washington, D.C.
00:01:03:06, 00:01:07:02, , our international networks, and Georgetown’s catholic
00:01:07:05, 00:01:10:10, and jesuit identity, an identity that embraces
00:01:10:12, 00:01:13:16, dialogue with other faith traditions and with
00:01:13:19, 00:01:17:05, a wider secular world. What brings us together
00:01:17:07, 00:01:22:09, today is, of course, religious secular debate or dialogue.
00:01:22:12, 00:01:28:09, From one perspective, a kind of intellectual combat. From another perspective,
00:01:28:12, 00:01:32:03, a shared quest for truth marked by a willingness
00:01:32:05, 00:01:35:15, on both sides to ask and to attempt to answer
00:01:35:17, 00:01:40:14, very big questions. I can think of no question
00:01:40:16, 00:01:45:02, bigger than the one on your program today.
00:01:45:04, 00:01:48:07, I anticipate an engaging conversation, and I have
00:01:48:10, 00:01:51:20, a sneaking suspicion it will be entertaining, as well.
00:01:51:23, 00:01:55:09, We have a lot to look forward to, and with that, I would like
00:01:55:12, 00:01:59:03, to turn it over to Michael cromerty, vice president of the
00:01:59:05, 00:02:01:23, ethics and public policy center and the real
00:02:02:02, 00:02:05:05, driver behind tonight’s event. Michael, thank
00:02:05:08, 00:02:08:11, you for bringing us together. I look forward,
00:02:08:13, 00:02:15:14, I know we all look forward to a stimulating conversation.
00:02:20:21, 00:02:23:09, Thank you, Tom. I would like to begin by saying
00:02:23:11, 00:02:25:23, thank you to the present joy of this wonderful
00:02:26:01, 00:02:29:01, university for allowing us to have this event
00:02:29:04, 00:02:31:21, in this beautiful setting in gaston hall.
00:02:31:23, 00:02:34:01, I’m also grateful to Tom and his staff for
00:02:34:04, 00:02:36:07, all their help and work in making this event
00:02:36:09, 00:02:40:08, possible and to co-host it with the ethics and public policy
00:02:40:10, 00:02:44:23, center. Now, on the back page of your program, you’ll see the names
00:02:45:02, 00:02:48:03, of some individuals and some foundations who
00:02:48:06, 00:02:51:02, helped make this event possible. We, of course,
00:02:51:04, 00:02:53:21, are very grateful for their generous support.
00:02:53:23, 00:03:00:12, I’d like to say a few words also about our format. Mr. Hitchens will go first for 15
00:03:00:15, 00:03:03:06, or 20 minutes and then be followed by professor
00:03:03:08, 00:03:06:08, McGrath, who will then have the same amount of time.
00:03:06:11, 00:03:11:17, Then Mr. Hitchens will then have 8 to 10 minutes for rebuttal, and then he’ll
00:03:11:20, 00:03:14:14, be followed by professor McGrath for 8 or 10 minutes.
00:03:14:17, 00:03:19:17, The rebuttals will occur — their presentations will occur from here. The rebuttals
00:03:19:19, 00:03:23:06, will occur from the seats. That way I can moderate.
00:03:23:08, 00:03:28:09, We’ll then open it up to questions from the audience, and the way we’re going
00:03:28:11, 00:03:34:14, to do that is the following. I believe all of you have been given, I hope, 3×5 cards
00:03:34:16, 00:03:37:12, to write your questions on. They’ll be collected
00:03:37:15, 00:03:40:14, by the ushers, and then I will read the questions.
00:03:40:16, 00:03:42:18, Now, there are almost 800 people here.
00:03:42:21, 00:03:45:20, I don’t think we’ll get to all 800, but we will get
00:03:45:22, 00:03:52:20, to, I hope, a significant amount of them. Now, I would — I will not take time just
00:03:52:22, 00:03:55:14, now to give an extensive introduction of our
00:03:55:17, 00:03:58:06, speakers because you have in your brochure
00:03:58:08, 00:04:00:11, elaborate biographies of each of these gentlemen,
00:04:00:13, 00:04:02:07, and of course, I know you’re here because
00:04:02:09, 00:04:05:11, you know their reputations, and that’s why you’ve come.
00:04:05:13, 00:04:10:09, So I would like to begin my introduction of Christopher hitchens this way.
00:04:10:12, 00:04:14:21, By calling your attention to this cartoon, in an issue
00:04:15:23, 00:04:18:13, this past June, the new yorker magazine ran
00:04:18:15, 00:04:21:10, the following cartoon. I’ll describe it to you.
00:04:21:13, 00:04:25:15, A woman — the wife is sitting on the couch reading, and her husband is walking
00:04:25:18, 00:04:28:06, in the door, and just as he’s coming in the
00:04:28:09, 00:04:30:22, front door, a bolt of lightning is striking
00:04:31:01, 00:04:33:15, him right in the back, and the wife says, “i
00:04:33:18, 00:04:37:05, begged you not to buy that book by Christopher hitchens.
00:04:37:07, 00:04:43:01, ” Ladies and gentlemen, he bought the book, and so have many others.
00:04:45:01, 00:04:47:04, And the Christopher’s book, god is not great, has
00:04:47:07, 00:04:48:23, been on the New York times best seller list
00:04:49:02, 00:04:51:23, now for, I think, over 20 weeks. In introducing
00:04:52:02, 00:04:54:23, Christopher hitchens, I should at least mention
00:04:55:02, 00:04:58:06, what some others have said about him and his gifts.
00:04:58:09, 00:05:01:19, Here’s the London observer who has said, “he is one of the
00:05:01:22, 00:05:05:06, most prolific as well as brilliant journalists of our time.
00:05:05:08, 00:05:07:21, ” Or the Los Angeles times has said this, “he is a
00:05:07:23, 00:05:10:12, political and literary journalist extraordinaire.
00:05:10:15, 00:05:13:09, ” And the New York magazine — the new yorker
00:05:13:12, 00:05:16:02, magazine has said, “he is an intellectual
00:05:16:04, 00:05:21:23, willing to show his teeth in the cause of righteousness.” And finally, Christopher,
00:05:22:01, 00:05:24:19, you would be interested to know that our mutual
00:05:24:21, 00:05:27:19, friend, the political philosopher Peter berkowitz,
00:05:27:21, 00:05:30:05, who’s here tonight, recently said this about
00:05:30:07, 00:05:32:15, you, “whether you agree or disagree with what
00:05:32:18, 00:05:36:02, he says or writes, Christopher is utterly
00:05:36:04, 00:05:39:15, incapable of ever being boring.” And that’s
00:05:39:18, 00:05:46:15, it. Christopher, thank you for coming. We trust you will not be boring.
00:05:46:18, 00:05:52:02, [ Applause ]
00:05:52:04, 00:05:54:15, >> Well, thank you, Georgetown.
00:05:54:17, 00:05:58:09, Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for coming.
00:06:03:12, 00:06:07:12, Thank you, Michael, for that suspiciously terse introduction,
00:06:07:14, 00:06:13:04, which of all the introductions I’ve heard to myself is certainly the most recent.
00:06:13:07, 00:06:16:15, Thank you seriously to the ethics and public
00:06:16:17, 00:06:20:23, policy center for your work, for conceiving this
00:06:21:01, 00:06:25:20, idea, for encouraging me to do it, for bringing us Dr.
00:06:25:23, 00:06:32:07, McGrath all the way from our common Alma mater of Oxford, and for the regular
00:06:32:09, 00:06:34:05, seminars that you may not know that Michael
00:06:34:08, 00:06:36:03, does all the time on these matters of faith
00:06:36:05, 00:06:42:11, versus reason, which is after all the ground on which we’re met this evening.
00:06:42:14, 00:06:47:01, I always come before events like this with antagonists like Dr.
00:06:47:03, 00:06:49:14, McGrath with a slight sense, a very
00:06:49:16, 00:06:54:10, slight sense, I hope it doesn’t sound self-pitying, of inequality.
00:06:54:12, 00:06:56:16, My views are, if I say it for
00:06:58:15, 00:07:01:08, myself, tolerably well advertised.
00:07:01:10, 00:07:04:23, And if they’re not, it’s partly your fault.
00:07:05:01, 00:07:08:21, Because what I say is fairly intelligible, very plainly stated.
00:07:08:23, 00:07:11:22, You know what I think, if you care to find out.
00:07:11:23, 00:07:17:04, When I debate with Jews and muslims and christians, I very often find, I say,
00:07:17:06, 00:07:19:09, well, do you really believe there was a virgin birth?
00:07:19:11, 00:07:21:07, Do you really believe in a Genesis creation?
00:07:21:09, 00:07:23:11, Do you really believe in bodily resurrection?
00:07:23:13, 00:07:25:06, And I get a sort of monty python eye.
00:07:25:08, 00:07:29:07, Well, there’s a little bit of metaphorical really.
00:07:29:09, 00:07:31:22, I’m not sure, and I’m determined to
00:07:32:00, 00:07:37:07, find out this evening, which line on this my antagonist does
00:07:37:09, 00:07:42:17, take. And I want you to notice, and I want you to test him on it.
00:07:42:20, 00:07:46:08, Because I think it’s fair. And I’m going to
00:07:46:10, 00:07:49:13, talk to him and to you as if he did represent
00:07:49:15, 00:07:52:11, the Christian faith. I can’t do all three
00:07:52:14, 00:07:54:14, monotheisms tonight. I may get a whack at the
00:07:54:16, 00:07:56:12, other two in the course of the discussion.
00:07:56:15, 00:07:59:11, I can only really do his. I’m going to assume
00:07:59:13, 00:08:02:07, that it means something to him and that it’s
00:08:02:09, 00:08:09:07, not just a humanist metaphysics. And I think I’m entitled to that assumption.
00:08:09:09, 00:08:11:23, The main thing I want to dispute this evening,
00:08:12:01, 00:08:14:10, because I’m either drowning in time with 20
00:08:14:13, 00:08:17:20, minutes, it’s either too much or too little, is this.
00:08:17:22, 00:08:23:12, You hear it very often said by people of a vague faith that, well, it may not be
00:08:23:14, 00:08:27:02, the case that religion is metaphysically true.
00:08:27:04, 00:08:30:16, Its figures and its stories may be legendary
00:08:30:19, 00:08:34:02, or dwell on the edge of myth, prehistoric.
00:08:34:04, 00:08:36:23, Its truth claims may be laughable.
00:08:37:02, 00:08:41:08, We have better explanations for the origins both of
00:08:41:11, 00:08:44:04, our cosmos and our species now, so much better
00:08:44:06, 00:08:46:15, so, in fact, that had they been available
00:08:46:17, 00:08:49:05, to begin with, religion would never have taken root.
00:08:49:08, 00:08:54:05, No one would now go back to the stage when we didn’t have any real philosophy.
00:08:54:07, 00:08:58:01, We only had mythology. When we thought we lived
00:08:58:03, 00:09:00:23, on a flat planet or when we thought that our
00:09:01:01, 00:09:03:19, planet was circulated by the sun instead of
00:09:03:21, 00:09:05:19, the other way around. When we didn’t know
00:09:05:21, 00:09:08:00, there were microorganisms as part of creation
00:09:08:03, 00:09:09:19, and that they were more powerful than us and
00:09:09:21, 00:09:11:10, had dominion over us rather than we then.
00:09:11:12, 00:09:14:23, When we were fearful the infancy of our species.
00:09:15:01, 00:09:18:08, We wouldn’t have taken up theism if we’d known
00:09:18:10, 00:09:21:04, now what we did then, but allow for all that.
00:09:21:06, 00:09:23:22, Allow for all that. You still have to credit
00:09:24:01, 00:09:26:18, religion with being the source of ethics and morals.
00:09:26:21, 00:09:30:20, Where would we get these from if it weren’t for faith? I think if in the time
00:09:30:22, 00:09:33:03, I’ve got, I think that’s the position I most
00:09:33:05, 00:09:36:03, want to undermine. I don’t believe that
00:09:36:05, 00:09:39:16, it’s true that religion is moral or ethical.
00:09:39:19, 00:09:41:15, I certainly don’t believe, of course, that any
00:09:41:17, 00:09:43:10, of its explanations about the origin of our
00:09:43:12, 00:09:45:21, species or the cosmos or its ultimate destiny
00:09:45:23, 00:09:48:03, are true either. In fact, I think most of
00:09:48:05, 00:09:51:20, these have been conclusively, utterly discredited.
00:09:51:22, 00:09:54:17, But I’ll deal with the remaining claim.
00:09:54:20, 00:09:59:11, Is it moral? Again, I can only do christianity this evening.
00:09:59:14, 00:10:05:12, Is it moral to believe that your sins, yours and mine, ladies and gentlemen,
00:10:05:15, 00:10:09:02, brothers and sisters, can be forgiven by the
00:10:09:04, 00:10:12:09, punishment of another person? Is it ethical to believe that?
00:10:12:11, 00:10:14:04, I would submit that the doctrine
00:10:14:06, 00:10:22:10, of vicarious redemption by human sacrifice is utterly immoral. I might, if I wished,
00:10:22:13, 00:10:24:05, if I knew any of you, you were my friends, or
00:10:24:07, 00:10:25:21, even if I didn’t know you, but I just loved
00:10:25:23, 00:10:28:14, the idea of you. Compulsory love is another
00:10:28:17, 00:10:31:07, sickly element of christianity, by the way.
00:10:31:10, 00:10:35:16, But suppose I could say, “look, you’re in debt. I’ve just made a lot of money out of
00:10:35:18, 00:10:38:10, a god-bashing book. I’ll pay your debts for you.
00:10:38:12, 00:10:42:07, Maybe you’ll pay me back someday, but for now I can get you out of trouble.
00:10:42:10, 00:10:44:21, ” I could say, if I really loved someone who’d been
00:10:44:23, 00:10:48:03, sentenced to prison, if I could find a way of saying I’d serve your sentence, I’d try
00:10:48:05, 00:10:50:11, and do it. I could do what Sidney carton does
00:10:50:13, 00:10:52:14, in a tale of two cities. If you like, i’m
00:10:52:16, 00:10:54:20, very unlikely to do this unless you’ve been
00:10:54:22, 00:10:57:02, incredibly sweet to me, I’ll take your place
00:10:57:05, 00:10:59:19, on the scaffold. But I can’t take away your
00:10:59:21, 00:11:02:19, responsibilities. I can’t forgive what you did.
00:11:02:21, 00:11:08:02, I can’t say you didn’t do it. I can’t make you wash clean. The name for that in
00:11:08:04, 00:11:11:07, primitive middle eastern society was scapegoating.
00:11:11:10, 00:11:13:23, You pile the sins of the tribe on a goat,
00:11:14:01, 00:11:16:06, you drive that goat into the desert to die of thirst and
00:11:16:08, 00:11:20:06, hunger, and you think you’ve taken away the sins of the tribe.
00:11:20:08, 00:11:24:16, A positively immoral doctrine that abolishes the concept
00:11:24:18, 00:11:27:12, of personal responsibility on which all ethics
00:11:27:14, 00:11:31:03, and all morality must depend. It has a further implication.
00:11:31:05, 00:11:34:10, I’m told that I have to have a share in this human
00:11:34:13, 00:11:38:05, sacrifice, even though it took place long before I was born.
00:11:38:07, 00:11:42:00, I had no say in it happening. I wasn’t consulted about it.
00:11:42:02, 00:11:46:07, Had I been present, I would have been bound to do my best to stop the public
00:11:46:10, 00:11:50:07, torture and execution of an eccentric preacher.
00:11:50:09, 00:11:53:11, I would do the same even now. No, no.
00:11:53:14, 00:11:56:03, I’m implicated in it. I myself drove in the nails.
00:11:56:05, 00:11:58:05, I was present at calvary. It confirms the
00:11:58:08, 00:12:01:05, original filthy sin in which I was conceived
00:12:01:08, 00:12:04:05, and born the sin of Adam and Genesis. Again,
00:12:04:07, 00:12:10:03, this may sound a mad belief, but it is the Christian belief. Well, it’s here that we
00:12:10:06, 00:12:12:13, find something very sinister about monotheism
00:12:12:15, 00:12:14:20, and about religious practice in general. It
00:12:14:22, 00:12:20:11, is incipiently at least, and I think often explicitly, totalitarian. I have no say in
00:12:20:14, 00:12:24:12, this. I am born under a celestial dictatorship
00:12:24:15, 00:12:28:18, which I could not have had any hand in choosing.
00:12:28:20, 00:12:31:16, I don’t put myself under its government.
00:12:31:18, 00:12:34:23, I am told that it can watch me while I sleep.
00:12:35:01, 00:12:37:14, I’m told that it can convict me of, here’s the definition of
00:12:37:17, 00:12:42:10, totalitarianism, thought crime for what I think I may be convicted
00:12:42:13, 00:12:45:23, and condemned, and that if I commit a right
00:12:46:02, 00:12:48:22, action it’s only to evade this punishment,
00:12:49:01, 00:12:51:22, and if I commit a wrong action I’m going to
00:12:52:01, 00:12:54:23, be caught up, not just with punishment in
00:12:55:02, 00:12:58:07, life for what I’ve done, which often follows
00:12:58:09, 00:13:04:09, axiomatically, but no. But even after i’m dead, in the old testament, gruesome as it
00:13:04:12, 00:13:08:18, is, recommending as it is of genocide, racism,
00:13:08:20, 00:13:12:21, tribalism, slavery, genital mutilation, and
00:13:12:23, 00:13:15:14, the displacement and destruction of others,
00:13:15:17, 00:13:20:05, terrible as the old testament gods are, they don’t promise to punish the dead.
00:13:20:07, 00:13:23:01, There’s no talk of torturing you after the earth has
00:13:23:03, 00:13:26:06, closed over the amalekites. Only when gentle
00:13:26:08, 00:13:29:08, Jesus, meek and mild, makes his appearance
00:13:29:11, 00:13:34:07, are those who won’t accept the message told they must depart into everlasting fire.
00:13:34:09, 00:13:36:10, Is this morality? Is this ethics?
00:13:36:12, 00:13:40:02, I submit not only is it not, not only does it come with
00:13:40:04, 00:13:42:19, the false promise of vicarious redemption, but
00:13:42:21, 00:13:45:12, it is the origin of the totalitarian principle
00:13:45:14, 00:13:50:03, which has been such a burden and shame to
00:13:50:05, 00:13:55:04, our species for so long. I further think that
00:13:55:06, 00:13:59:06, it undermines us in our most essential integrity.
00:13:59:08, 00:14:03:22, It dissolves our obligation to live and witness in truth.
00:14:04:00, 00:14:09:05, Which of us would say that we will believe something because it might cheer us
00:14:09:08, 00:14:15:16, up, or tell our children that something was true because it might dry their eyes?
00:14:15:18, 00:14:18:22, Which of us indulges in wishful thinking?
00:14:19:01, 00:14:22:23, Who really cares about the pursuit of truth at all
00:14:23:01, 00:14:26:11, costs and at all hazards? Can it not be said, do
00:14:26:14, 00:14:29:18, you not in fact hear it said repeatedly about
00:14:29:20, 00:14:32:17, religion and by the religious themselves that,
00:14:32:19, 00:14:35:14, well, it may not be really true, the stories
00:14:35:16, 00:14:39:23, may be fairy tales, the history may be dubious,
00:14:40:02, 00:14:44:04, but it provides consolation. Can anyone hear
00:14:44:06, 00:14:47:18, themselves saying this or have it said of them
00:14:47:20, 00:14:51:04, without some kind of embarrassment, without
00:14:51:06, 00:14:54:23, the concession that thinking here is directly wishful?
00:14:55:02, 00:14:59:15, That yes, it would be nice if you could throw your sins and your responsibilities
00:14:59:18, 00:15:01:17, on someone else and have them dissolve, but
00:15:01:19, 00:15:05:11, it’s not true and it’s not morally sound.
00:15:05:13, 00:15:09:19, And that’s the second ground of my indictment.
00:15:09:22, 00:15:13:02, Michael, you will tell me when I’m trespassing
00:15:13:04, 00:15:15:19, on the time of Dr. McGrath, won’t you?
00:15:15:21, 00:15:18:09, On our basic integrity, knowing right from wrong
00:15:18:12, 00:15:20:18, and being able to choose a right action over
00:15:20:20, 00:15:23:10, a wrong one, I think one must repudiate the claim
00:15:23:13, 00:15:26:01, that one doesn’t have this moral discrimination
00:15:26:03, 00:15:28:10, innately, that no, it must come only from
00:15:28:13, 00:15:30:14, the agency of a celestial dictatorship,
00:15:30:17, 00:15:34:10, which one must love and simultaneously fear.
00:15:34:12, 00:15:37:19, What is it like? I’ve never tried it.
00:15:37:22, 00:15:41:11, I’ve never been a cleric. What is it like to lie to
00:15:41:14, 00:15:44:21, children for a living and tell them that they have
00:15:44:23, 00:15:47:06, an authority that they must love, compulsory
00:15:47:08, 00:15:49:16, love, what a grotesque idea, and be terrified
00:15:49:18, 00:15:53:20, of at the same time? What’s that like, I want to know?
00:15:53:23, 00:15:58:04, And that we don’t have an innate sense of right and wrong, the children don’t
00:15:58:06, 00:15:59:22, have an innate sense of fairness and decency,
00:16:00:01, 00:16:05:10, which of course they do. What is it like, I can personalize it to this extent.
00:16:05:12, 00:16:08:13, My mother’s Jewish ancestors are told that until they
00:16:08:15, 00:16:11:02, got to sinai, they’d been dragging themselves
00:16:11:04, 00:16:14:01, around the desert under the impression that
00:16:14:03, 00:16:17:15, adultery, murder, theft, and perjury were all fine.
00:16:17:18, 00:16:22:07, They get to mount sinai only to be told there’s not kosher after all.
00:16:22:09, 00:16:25:02, I’m sorry. Excuse me. We must have more
00:16:25:04, 00:16:28:23, self-respect than that for ourselves and for others.
00:16:29:01, 00:16:32:16, Of course the story is a fiction. It’s a fabrication
00:16:32:18, 00:16:35:17, exposed conclusively by Israeli archeology.
00:16:35:20, 00:16:37:18, Nothing of the sort ever took place, but
00:16:37:21, 00:16:40:03, suppose we take the metaphor. It’s an insult.
00:16:40:06, 00:16:43:14, It’s an insult to us. It’s an insult to our deepest integrity.
00:16:43:16, 00:16:46:10, No, if we’d believed the perjury, murder, and theft were all
00:16:46:12, 00:16:48:23, right, we wouldn’t have got as far as the foot of mount sinai
00:16:49:01, 00:16:54:18, or anywhere else. Now we’re told what we have to believe.
00:16:54:20, 00:17:01:06, This is coming now to the question of whether or not science, reason, and religion
00:17:01:08, 00:17:04:12, are compatible or I would rather say reconcilable.
00:17:04:14, 00:17:07:02, The late great Stephen Jay gould said that he
00:17:07:05, 00:17:09:17, believed they were non-overlapping magisteria.
00:17:09:20, 00:17:13:13, You can be both a believer and a person of faith.
00:17:13:15, 00:17:17:04, Sitting in front of me is a very distinguished,
00:17:17:06, 00:17:19:23, extremely distinguished scholar, Francis Collins,
00:17:20:01, 00:17:22:11, helped us to unlock the human genome project,
00:17:22:14, 00:17:25:05, who is himself a believer. I’d love to hear from him.
00:17:25:07, 00:17:26:17, I hope we will hear from him.
00:17:26:19, 00:17:28:23, I don’t believe he says that his discoveries
00:17:29:02, 00:17:31:17, in the genome convinced him of the truth of religion.
00:17:31:20, 00:17:33:16, He holds it, as it were, independently.
00:17:33:18, 00:17:36:22, I hope I do you no wrong, sir, in phrasing it like that.
00:17:37:01, 00:17:45:21, Here’s why I, a non-scientist, will say that I think it’s radically irreconcilable.
00:17:45:23, 00:17:48:01, I’d rather say than incompatible.
00:17:48:03, 00:17:51:22, I’ve taken the best advice I can on how long homo sapiens
00:17:52:01, 00:17:55:08, has been on the planet. Carl sagan, Richard
00:17:55:11, 00:17:59:09, Dawkins, many others, and many of the discrepancies
00:17:59:11, 00:18:01:22, in theirs, reckon it’s not more than
00:18:02:00, 00:18:04:22, 250,000 years, quarter of a million years.
00:18:05:00, 00:18:09:01, It’s not less either. I think it’s roughly accepted.
00:18:09:04, 00:18:11:21, I think, sir, you wouldn’t disagree.
00:18:11:23, 00:18:15:05, 100,000 is the lowest I’ve heard. Actually, I was
00:18:15:08, 00:18:18:03, about to say, again, not to sound too Jewish,
00:18:18:06, 00:18:22:16, I’ll take 100,000. I only need 100,000.
00:18:22:18, 00:18:28:11, Call it 100. For 100,000 years, homo sapiens was
00:18:28:14, 00:18:33:15, born usually, not usually, but very often, dying in the process or killing its mother
00:18:33:18, 00:18:36:23, in the process. Life expectancy, probably not
00:18:37:01, 00:18:40:02, much more than 20, 25 years. Dying probably
00:18:40:04, 00:18:43:09, of the teeth after that, very agonizingly,
00:18:43:12, 00:18:46:20, near to the brain as they are, or of hunger,
00:18:46:22, 00:18:51:23, or of microorganisms that they didn’t know existed, or of events such as volcanic or
00:18:52:02, 00:18:54:18, Tsunami or earthquake types that would have
00:18:54:20, 00:18:57:08, been wholly terrifying and mysterious, as
00:18:57:10, 00:19:00:23, well as some turf wars over women, land, property,
00:19:01:02, 00:19:04:03, food, other matters. You can imagine it for
00:19:04:05, 00:19:08:16, yourself what the first few tens of thousands
00:19:08:18, 00:19:13:06, of years were like. We like to think, learning
00:19:13:08, 00:19:16:12, a little bit in the process, and certainly having gods all the
00:19:16:14, 00:19:20:10, way, worshipping bears fairly early on, I can sort of see why.
00:19:20:13, 00:19:23:13, Sometimes worshipping other human beings, big
00:19:23:16, 00:19:26:23, mistake, I’m coming back to that if I have time.
00:19:27:02, 00:19:30:20, This and that and the other thing. But exponentially
00:19:30:22, 00:19:34:04, perhaps improving, though in some areas of
00:19:34:07, 00:19:37:15, the world very nearly completely dying out,
00:19:37:17, 00:19:42:16, a bitter struggle all along. Call it 100,000 years.
00:19:42:18, 00:19:46:15, According to the Christian faith, heaven
00:19:46:17, 00:19:51:05, watches this with folded arms for 98,000
00:19:51:08, 00:19:56:18, years and then decides it’s time to intervene.
00:19:56:21, 00:20:00:04, And the best way of doing that would be a human
00:20:00:06, 00:20:03:02, sacrifice in primitive Palestine, where the
00:20:03:05, 00:20:05:13, news would take so long to spread that it
00:20:05:15, 00:20:08:15, still hasn’t penetrated very large parts of the world.
00:20:08:18, 00:20:12:03, And that would be our redemption of the human species. Now I submit to you
00:20:12:05, 00:20:14:08, ladies and gentlemen that that is what I’ve
00:20:14:10, 00:20:16:14, just said, which you must believe to believe
00:20:16:16, 00:20:19:14, the Christian revelation is not possible to
00:20:19:16, 00:20:22:12, believe, as well as not decent to believe.
00:20:22:14, 00:20:25:01, Why is it not possible? Because a virgin birth
00:20:25:03, 00:20:27:09, is more likely than that. A resurrection is
00:20:27:12, 00:20:29:23, more likely than that. And because if it was
00:20:30:01, 00:20:32:14, true, it would have two further implications.
00:20:32:17, 00:20:37:13, It would have to mean that the designer of this plan was unbelievably lazy and inept,
00:20:37:15, 00:20:43:06, or unbelievably callous and cruel and indifferent and capricious.
00:20:43:08, 00:20:47:18, And that is the case with every argument for design and every argument
00:20:47:20, 00:20:50:17, for revelation and intervention that has ever been made.
00:20:50:20, 00:20:56:15, But it’s now conclusively so because of the superior knowledge that we’ve won for
00:20:56:17, 00:21:02:14, ourselves by an endless struggle to assert our reason, our science, our humanity, our
00:21:02:17, 00:21:04:13, extension of knowledge against the priests,
00:21:04:15, 00:21:06:11, against the rabbis, against the mullahs who
00:21:06:14, 00:21:09:18, have always wanted us to consider ourselves
00:21:09:21, 00:21:12:23, as made from dust, or from a clot of blood
00:21:13:02, 00:21:15:15, according to the quran, or as the Jews are
00:21:15:17, 00:21:18:09, supposed to pray every morning, at least not
00:21:18:11, 00:21:24:19, female or gentile. And here’s my final point, because I think it’s coming to it.
00:21:24:21, 00:21:28:08, The final insult that religion delivers to us, the
00:21:28:10, 00:21:31:14, final poison it jets into our system, it appeals
00:21:31:17, 00:21:36:01, both to our meanness, our self-centeredness
00:21:36:04, 00:21:40:05, and our solipsism, and to our masochism.
00:21:40:07, 00:21:42:07, In other words, it’s sadomasochistic.
00:21:42:10, 00:21:45:07, I’ll put it like this. You’re a clot of blood, you’re
00:21:45:10, 00:21:48:23, a piece of mud, you’re lucky to be alive. God fashioned you
00:21:49:01, 00:21:52:04, for his convenience even though you’re born in filth and sin.
00:21:52:07, 00:21:54:18, And even though every religion there’s ever been
00:21:54:20, 00:21:57:08, is distinguished principally by the idea that
00:21:57:11, 00:21:59:22, we should be disgusted by our own sexuality.
00:22:00:00, 00:22:03:07, Name me a religion that does not play upon that fact.
00:22:03:09, 00:22:05:17, So you’re lucky to be here, originally
00:22:05:20, 00:22:09:09, sinful and covered in shame and filth as you are.
00:22:09:12, 00:22:12:17, You’re a wretched creature, but take heart.
00:22:12:19, 00:22:16:03, The universe is designed with you in mind.
00:22:16:06, 00:22:18:18, And heaven has a plan for you.
00:22:18:20, 00:22:21:09, Ladies and gentlemen, I close by saying, I can’t
00:22:21:11, 00:22:23:15, believe there is a thinking person here who
00:22:23:17, 00:22:27:04, does not realize that our species would begin
00:22:27:07, 00:22:33:04, to grow to something like its full height if it left this childishness behind, if it
00:22:33:06, 00:22:36:23, emancipated itself from this sinister, childish nonsense.
00:22:37:01, 00:22:41:09, And I now commit you to the good Dr. McGrath. Thank you.
00:22:41:12, 00:22:57:09, [Applause]
00:22:57:11, 00:23:00:11, >> Thank you, Christopher. Well, besides what
00:23:00:14, 00:23:03:09, you can read in his bio in your program, I
00:23:03:12, 00:23:09:14, should let you know that professor McGrath holds two Oxford doctorates, one a doctor
00:23:09:16, 00:23:12:02, of divinity for his work on historical theology
00:23:12:05, 00:23:14:13, and systematic theology and another doctorate
00:23:14:15, 00:23:17:22, of philosophy for his work on molecular biophysics.
00:23:17:23, 00:23:21:18, Here’s what publishers weekly said recently about his work.
00:23:21:21, 00:23:25:04, Dr. McGrath has distinguished himself as a historical
00:23:25:06, 00:23:28:16, theologian and as a generous and witty writer who brings to
00:23:28:19, 00:23:31:19, life topics that would turn to dust in others’ hands.
00:23:31:21, 00:23:33:08, We’re especially grateful that professor
00:23:33:11, 00:23:35:03, McGrath has traveled all the way from Oxford
00:23:35:05, 00:23:42:03, last night to join us for this evening. Thank you, Dr. McGrath.
00:23:42:05, 00:23:47:23, [Applause]
00:23:48:02, 00:23:49:13, >> Well, thank you very much indeed.
00:23:49:15, 00:23:52:06, It’s a huge pleasure to be here at Georgetown this afternoon.
00:23:52:08, 00:23:56:04, Now, someone told me when I was growing up that I’d be here at such a distinguished
00:23:56:06, 00:24:00:16, place as Georgetown talking about atheism, and I’d have been extremely surprised.
00:24:00:19, 00:24:03:18, I think for two reasons. One was I grew up in northern Ireland.
00:24:03:20, 00:24:05:10, Now, some of you may come from this
00:24:05:12, 00:24:08:12, place, but it’s a kind of rather backward place, and the
00:24:08:14, 00:24:12:04, greatest annual event of my youth was the dona cady donkey derby.
00:24:12:07, 00:24:15:06, So you can see coming to somewhere like Washington
00:24:15:08, 00:24:17:16, is just amazing, so it’s great to be here.
00:24:17:18, 00:24:20:05, But I think what would have surprised me more
00:24:20:08, 00:24:22:08, would have been if someone were to say, well,
00:24:22:10, 00:24:24:09, you’re taking part in a debate about atheism,
00:24:24:12, 00:24:26:10, is I would have assumed that I would have
00:24:26:12, 00:24:28:11, been on the atheist side, because certainly
00:24:28:14, 00:24:33:04, as a young man, that was what I believed. I grew up in northern Ireland studying the
00:24:33:07, 00:24:36:23, sciences, wanting to go to Oxford to take this further, and it was very, very clear
00:24:37:01, 00:24:39:14, to me that the sciences disproved god, they
00:24:39:16, 00:24:42:05, completely eroded the ground on which faith
00:24:42:08, 00:24:44:21, stood, and of course there was violence between
00:24:44:23, 00:24:47:09, protestant and catholic in northern Ireland,
00:24:47:12, 00:24:50:09, therefore my logic was invaluable. No catholics,
00:24:50:12, 00:24:53:05, no protestants, no violence between catholics
00:24:53:07, 00:24:58:05, and protestants. So it seemed to me to be very, very straightforward,
00:24:58:07, 00:25:00:22, and certainly when I went up to Oxford to begin studying
00:25:01:01, 00:25:02:21, the sciences in much more detail, it seemed
00:25:02:23, 00:25:05:15, to me really I had sorted things out and could
00:25:05:18, 00:25:08:05, relax for a while. But I found myself being
00:25:08:07, 00:25:13:07, challenged by a number of things. One was being challenged by beginning to read the
00:25:13:10, 00:25:16:03, history and philosophy of science and reading
00:25:16:05, 00:25:18:17, that the kind of scientific positivism i’d
00:25:18:20, 00:25:22:08, imbibed wasn’t quite as straightforward as I’d suggested.
00:25:22:10, 00:25:26:05, And also beginning to realise actually that the evidential
00:25:26:08, 00:25:30:11, basis for atheism was much weaker than I had realised, and I
00:25:30:13, 00:25:34:02, began to find myself being excited intellectually
00:25:34:05, 00:25:37:11, and stimulated far more than I dared to think
00:25:37:14, 00:25:43:14, by the Christian faith. And so in the end I came to faith, swapping my old faith of
00:25:43:16, 00:25:49:01, atheism for my new one of christianity. I don’t think I did so as any kind of wish
00:25:49:04, 00:25:51:21, fulfilment, of any kind of psychological need.
00:25:51:23, 00:25:54:15, It was much more just a profound intellectual
00:25:54:17, 00:25:57:09, conviction that this was right, that this
00:25:57:11, 00:26:00:10, made sense in itself, and that this made sense
00:26:00:13, 00:26:03:17, of things as well. It was like someone, I
00:26:03:20, 00:26:08:06, suppose, who knew water discovering champagne.
00:26:08:09, 00:26:11:04, So for me this was really a very significant
00:26:11:06, 00:26:13:23, event, and indeed to this day I still look
00:26:14:01, 00:26:17:03, back at my atheist days with great nostalgia,
00:26:17:06, 00:26:21:01, even though I no longer actually hold to those positions.
00:26:21:04, 00:26:24:00, And so it’s a very great pleasure to be able to interact this afternoon with
00:26:24:03, 00:26:28:12, Christopher hitchens. And I wanted to make it very, very clear that what he is saying
00:26:28:15, 00:26:33:06, today needs to be respected, and I hope I will behave respectfully towards him.
00:26:33:09, 00:26:35:21, I want to offer some points of disagreement, some
00:26:35:23, 00:26:38:07, points of challenge, some points of agreement,
00:26:38:10, 00:26:44:14, and also some genuine points of curiosity to try and get our conversation underway.
00:26:44:17, 00:26:47:15, And so I want to really focus on his main argument, which I think
00:26:47:18, 00:26:51:17, you’ve heard very, very clearly, that religion is immoral and
00:26:51:19, 00:26:55:07, leads to immorality, that in some way it is toxic.
00:26:55:09, 00:26:58:03, And these seem to me to be very significant
00:26:58:05, 00:27:00:14, arguments, very significant claims, and
00:27:00:16, 00:27:03:23, therefore I want to try and engage with them.
00:27:04:02, 00:27:08:06, I apologize to him, and indeed I also apologize to you.
00:27:08:09, 00:27:10:01, In the time available I will not be able to
00:27:10:03, 00:27:11:18, interact with him properly, but at least I
00:27:11:20, 00:27:17:02, hope I can begin to get this conversation moving forward.
00:27:17:05, 00:27:20:00, So an obvious question I find myself asking
00:27:20:03, 00:27:25:16, as I both read Mr. Hitchens’ book and also listen to him speak is that I think there
00:27:25:19, 00:27:28:19, are aspects of this that I would love to have
00:27:28:21, 00:27:31:08, heard more about. For example, in recent years,
00:27:31:11, 00:27:33:15, especially the last 15 years, there’s been
00:27:33:17, 00:27:37:07, a very substantial body of scientific research
00:27:37:09, 00:27:41:09, into the empirical effect that religious commitment
00:27:41:12, 00:27:43:21, actually has on people. And as someone who
00:27:43:23, 00:27:46:10, was a scientist and still remains wedded to
00:27:46:13, 00:27:49:10, evidence-based thinking, I wondered if this might
00:27:49:12, 00:27:52:04, actually come into Mr. Hitchens’ presentation.
00:27:52:06, 00:27:54:20, To give you an example, if we look at koenig
00:27:54:23, 00:27:57:07, and Cohen’s very famous book published in
00:27:57:10, 00:28:00:18, 2001, the link between religion and health, we
00:28:00:20, 00:28:04:01, find that the overwhelming body of empirical
00:28:04:04, 00:28:08:08, studies to look at this find a positive correlation
00:28:08:11, 00:28:12:01, between religious commitment and well-being.
00:28:12:04, 00:28:14:16, Now that does not prove that there is a god,
00:28:14:18, 00:28:17:09, and certainly it does not prove that all forms
00:28:17:12, 00:28:19:14, of religion are good for you. I will gladly
00:28:19:16, 00:28:21:22, concede, because I think Mr. Hitchens is right
00:28:22:01, 00:28:25:16, on this, that there are some forms of religion
00:28:25:18, 00:28:29:02, that are pathological, that damage people.
00:28:29:04, 00:28:32:09, But there’s a need, I think, for a real discussion
00:28:32:11, 00:28:35:09, about what is pathological and what is normal,
00:28:35:12, 00:28:38:18, about what is the centre and what are the fringes.
00:28:38:20, 00:28:40:23, And that, I think, also extends to
00:28:41:01, 00:28:45:19, Mr. Hitchens’ analysis of the impact of religion in general.
00:28:45:21, 00:28:51:19, He makes the point, and I think I want to say he is right to make this point,
00:28:51:22, 00:28:55:08, that religion has done much damage in history.
00:28:55:10, 00:28:58:10, I regard that point as being beyond contradiction,
00:28:58:12, 00:29:01:03, and it seems to me that every one of us here
00:29:01:05, 00:29:07:03, this afternoon needs to say that is right. But I think we need also to go further and
00:29:07:06, 00:29:09:17, begin to explore. And the kind of questions
00:29:09:20, 00:29:13:15, I would like to open up for discussion would include these.
00:29:13:17, 00:29:22:15, Yes, religion has done damage, but is this typical or is this a fringe element?
00:29:22:17, 00:29:25:10, Who are the normal people? Who are the fanatics?
00:29:25:13, 00:29:30:21, And it seems to me there’s a real need to try and make this kind of adjudication.
00:29:30:23, 00:29:34:09, I Grant the history is there, that there have
00:29:34:11, 00:29:37:04, been some awful things done. But as Michael
00:29:37:07, 00:29:40:09, shermer, who is president of the skeptic society,
00:29:40:11, 00:29:42:23, wrote in a book how we believe some years
00:29:43:02, 00:29:45:18, ago, for every one of these atrocities which
00:29:45:20, 00:29:49:18, must cause all of us deep concern, there are
00:29:49:20, 00:29:53:22, 10,000 unreported acts of kindness, generosity
00:29:54:01, 00:29:57:07, and so forth arising from religious commitment.
00:29:57:09, 00:30:00:07, And trying to get this balance right seems
00:30:00:10, 00:30:05:19, to me to have enormous importance. What is the fringe? What is the centre?
00:30:05:22, 00:30:08:21, So that’s one point I think I’d like to open up for
00:30:08:23, 00:30:13:20, further discussion. But I’d also like to try and just make a more general point.
00:30:13:23, 00:30:17:04, And that is that I think world views in general,
00:30:17:07, 00:30:21:04, whether they are religious, irreligious, whatever
00:30:21:06, 00:30:24:21, they are, have the capacity to animate people
00:30:24:23, 00:30:27:14, to the extent that they feel they must go
00:30:27:17, 00:30:30:12, and do things which many of us would regard
00:30:30:14, 00:30:34:06, as morally reprehensible. We see this in the
00:30:34:08, 00:30:38:17, Soviet union, a rather grim period in modern history.
00:30:38:19, 00:30:44:18, We find, for example, Lenin having said basically that there is no higher authority
00:30:44:20, 00:30:48:05, by which he may be judged, feeling able to,
00:30:48:08, 00:30:53:22, I quote, “authorise the protracted use of brutality against religious believers.
00:30:54:00, 00:30:57:05, ” And it seems to me that we have here an ideology,
00:30:57:07, 00:31:00:23, a world view, which basically is sanctioning
00:31:01:01, 00:31:05:01, violence, in this case anti-religious violence.
00:31:05:03, 00:31:10:09, Now I would not argue from that that this shows that atheism
00:31:10:11, 00:31:14:18, in general or atheists in particular are violent people.
00:31:14:20, 00:31:18:14, It’s much more about what movements do to people,
00:31:18:16, 00:31:22:13, about the damage that world views can cause when
00:31:22:16, 00:31:28:17, they begin to take over and begin to really animate people to want to do things.
00:31:28:20, 00:31:32:11, Again, look at the period under Stalin. There are
00:31:32:13, 00:31:37:08, many other examples we could give of world views that may well
00:31:37:10, 00:31:41:15, have begun with great excitement, great enthusiasm, a commitment
00:31:41:18, 00:31:47:13, to ideals that we can all identify with, but something happens and they go wrong.
00:31:47:15, 00:31:52:10, The French revolution, I believe, began with an outburst
00:31:52:12, 00:31:56:18, of energy for Liberty, but by 1793 it degenerated
00:31:56:20, 00:32:00:13, into the reign of terror in which an appeal
00:32:00:16, 00:32:04:11, to Liberty sanctioned the most dreadful acts of violence.
00:32:04:13, 00:32:08:10, And many of you will know the tragic story of madame Roland
00:32:08:13, 00:32:11:12, who was brought to the guillotine on trumped up
00:32:11:14, 00:32:15:13, charges in 1793, and as she was led to the guillotine
00:32:15:15, 00:32:19:01, she pointed to a statue of Liberty in a place
00:32:19:03, 00:32:25:23, called la révolution and said, “Liberty what crimes are committed in your name.
00:32:26:02, 00:32:30:06, ” History, I think, discloses a complex judgment here.
00:32:30:08, 00:32:36:01, I do not believe that it simply points to religion as being the cause of evil.
00:32:36:04, 00:32:39:21, I think it points to the capacity of all world views
00:32:39:23, 00:32:43:13, to begin to do this. It’s not so much religion
00:32:43:15, 00:32:47:10, or indeed anti-religion. It seems to be something
00:32:47:12, 00:32:51:02, actually about human nature itself, which
00:32:51:05, 00:32:55:06, means that acts of kindness can be accompanied
00:32:55:08, 00:32:58:06, by acts of violence. There’s something about
00:32:58:08, 00:33:01:20, us, I think, that really needs to be addressed there.
00:33:01:23, 00:33:06:22, So I don’t think it’s a threat for this. Religion poisons everything.
00:33:07:00, 00:33:11:17, I’m not sure. It can do, but so can other things as well.
00:33:11:20, 00:33:15:05, The real problem, I think, is extremism,
00:33:15:07, 00:33:18:09, the kinds of ideologies that force violence
00:33:18:12, 00:33:21:15, upon us, and those, it seems to me, do need
00:33:21:18, 00:33:25:10, to be challenged, and on that I’m at one with
00:33:25:13, 00:33:29:07, Mr. Hitchens. But is it god that’s doing this?
00:33:29:10, 00:33:31:17, Let’s move on and talk about this.
00:33:31:19, 00:33:35:15, Clearly a very important question here is how we know
00:33:35:17, 00:33:39:12, what god is like. Can you imagine god saying,
00:33:39:14, 00:33:43:11, “go and do violence to someone.” Well, I think
00:33:43:13, 00:33:46:04, some could quite easily, but I speak from a
00:33:46:06, 00:33:49:04, specific perspective, namely that of a Christian
00:33:49:06, 00:33:53:06, theologian and for christianity, the identity,
00:33:53:09, 00:33:57:21, the nature of god is disclosed in Jesus of nazareth.
00:33:57:23, 00:34:03:11, He is the image of the invisible god. He is the fulfillment of the law and
00:34:03:14, 00:34:08:06, the prophets. And when we look at Jesus of nazareth, we see something I think that is
00:34:08:08, 00:34:14:12, very, very challenging. We have one who refuses to do violence.
00:34:14:15, 00:34:20:21, Even in gethsemane, when some want to raise swords to defend him as he’s
00:34:20:23, 00:34:25:16, about to be betrayed, he bids them put their swords down.
00:34:25:18, 00:34:31:05, Jesus does not do violence, but he has violence done to him.
00:34:31:07, 00:34:35:16, And what I want to make is that your vision of what god is
00:34:35:19, 00:34:38:23, like has a profound impact on what you think
00:34:39:02, 00:34:42:03, god is urging you to do. And it seems to me
00:34:42:05, 00:34:47:16, that if one is a good Christian, then one is going to take the vision of what god is
00:34:47:19, 00:34:50:11, like and what god wants us to do that we find
00:34:50:13, 00:34:54:13, disclosed in Jesus with the utmost seriousness.
00:34:54:16, 00:34:58:18, Now, let me make it absolutely clear. I concede,
00:34:58:20, 00:35:02:21, and I may well be one of these, that there are many bad christians
00:35:02:23, 00:35:06:21, around who fail to live up to this vision. But I want to draw
00:35:06:23, 00:35:09:18, a clear distinction between some christians
00:35:09:20, 00:35:18:04, are bad and christianity is bad. There is an aspiration, an inspiration, a norm.
00:35:18:07, 00:35:21:09, And that means one can challenge those who want
00:35:21:12, 00:35:24:14, in some way to use violence in the name of god.
00:35:24:17, 00:35:27:09, And of course, you can see this impacting
00:35:27:12, 00:35:30:17, on the way in which people behave in an episode
00:35:30:19, 00:35:34:02, that happened a year ago here in the United States.
00:35:34:05, 00:35:39:04, You’ve had, unfortunately in recent days, some shooting incidents. And of course,
00:35:39:06, 00:35:42:00, what I’m talking about is the amish schoolhouse
00:35:42:03, 00:35:44:20, killings of October 2006. And many of you
00:35:44:23, 00:35:47:23, will know of these. Some of you may have been
00:35:48:02, 00:35:51:07, affected by them. A crazed gunman broke into
00:35:51:09, 00:35:54:09, an amish schoolhouse and shot, I think it
00:35:54:12, 00:35:58:09, was 10 amish schoolgirls, of whom five died.
00:35:58:12, 00:36:02:05, The amish, as I’m sure you all know, are a
00:36:02:08, 00:36:05:17, very conservative protestant sect who wear
00:36:05:19, 00:36:09:09, 17th century clothing, who won’t drive cars,
00:36:09:11, 00:36:12:22, they use horse buggies, and they also regard
00:36:13:00, 00:36:17:08, the ethical example of Jesus as absolutely normative.
00:36:17:11, 00:36:22:12, For them, there would be no retribution of any kind.
00:36:22:14, 00:36:25:12, The cycle of violence was broken
00:36:25:14, 00:36:34:06, instantly because for them, Christ ordered them, commanded them to show forgiveness.
00:36:34:09, 00:36:36:06, That’s a very important point.
00:36:36:09, 00:36:39:17, Religion, or in this case, christianity, contains
00:36:39:19, 00:36:42:22, within itself the capacity for self-criticism.
00:36:43:01, 00:36:46:02, This is not the way god is. This is not the
00:36:46:05, 00:36:49:04, way we should be behaving. And I fully concede
00:36:49:07, 00:36:52:03, there are those who fail to live up to that.
00:36:52:05, 00:36:56:03, But there is a challenge that can be issued to them.
00:36:56:05, 00:37:02:08, Why behave like this when there is the norm before you authorized as what god
00:37:02:11, 00:37:06:02, would like us to do? So it seems to me there
00:37:06:05, 00:37:08:17, is a very important point to make there.
00:37:08:19, 00:37:12:03, Now, Mr. Hitchens made some very interesting points
00:37:12:06, 00:37:14:14, about the relationship of science and faith.
00:37:14:16, 00:37:17:04, And of course, for me, who was studying science
00:37:17:06, 00:37:20:11, at Oxford, doing research in molecular biophysics,
00:37:20:14, 00:37:23:06, these were live questions. And I certainly
00:37:23:08, 00:37:26:17, welcome his challenge to discuss these things further.
00:37:26:19, 00:37:28:19, But for me, there has never been
00:37:28:21, 00:37:35:18, this opposition between science and faith. Certainly, some say there is, but I would
00:37:35:20, 00:37:41:13, want to make this point, building on what Stephen Jay gould says. Gould in his book,
00:37:41:15, 00:37:44:20, rocks of ages, makes the point, I think fairly,
00:37:44:22, 00:37:47:19, that although in his case he’s an atheist,
00:37:47:22, 00:37:51:10, he was not an atheist on account of his science.
00:37:51:13, 00:37:55:07, That in many ways, his atheism was already there.
00:37:55:09, 00:37:58:03, He brought it to his science.
00:37:58:06, 00:38:03:15, And he makes this point, that science, by its legitimate
00:38:03:17, 00:38:07:18, methods, cannot adjudicate the god question.
00:38:07:20, 00:38:11:20, Certainly, we can read nature in an atheist
00:38:11:22, 00:38:18:05, way, we can read nature in an agnostic way, we can read nature in a Christian way.
00:38:18:08, 00:38:22:11, But nature in itself and of itself does not force
00:38:22:14, 00:38:26:13, us to any of those positions. And I will simply
00:38:26:15, 00:38:29:15, say that I find my Christian faith gave me
00:38:29:17, 00:38:32:18, new intellectual energy, both to engage the
00:38:32:20, 00:38:37:04, natural order, to engage nature, is to learn more
00:38:37:06, 00:38:41:11, about god, and also to energize my understanding
00:38:41:13, 00:38:44:13, of what I was observing. And I find this summed
00:38:44:15, 00:38:49:05, up in a quote from c.S. Lewis, which I am in a habit of quoting, I’m afraid.
00:38:49:07, 00:38:52:17, “I believe,” he writes in christianity, “as I believe the
00:38:52:19, 00:38:56:17, sun has risen, not simply because I see it,
00:38:56:19, 00:39:00:11, but because by it I see everything else.
00:39:00:13, 00:39:03:05, ” In other words, it gives you an intellectual
00:39:03:07, 00:39:05:23, lens or framework through which you can look
00:39:06:01, 00:39:12:08, at the world, ourselves, culture, and see it in a new light. So for me, science and
00:39:12:11, 00:39:15:04, religion, there may be tensions, but there’s
00:39:15:06, 00:39:18:01, also a very powerful synergy, which I believe
00:39:18:04, 00:39:22:20, to be both welcome and also something that can be developed further.
00:39:22:22, 00:39:26:20, But let me move on, if I may, and make a further point.
00:39:26:22, 00:39:32:14, Mr. Hitchens makes some very significant criticisms of religion, which I emphasize
00:39:32:17, 00:39:35:19, need to be taken seriously. But what I wonder,
00:39:35:22, 00:39:38:20, does he offer in its place? In his book, he
00:39:38:23, 00:39:41:23, talks a bit, especially at the beginning and
00:39:42:01, 00:39:45:10, the end, of the need for a new enlightenment.
00:39:45:12, 00:39:48:21, And I find this puzzling, though nevertheless
00:39:48:23, 00:39:52:04, extremely interesting. I find it puzzling
00:39:52:06, 00:39:55:17, because for me, as an intellectual historian,
00:39:55:19, 00:39:58:16, the enlightenment really had been left behind
00:39:58:18, 00:40:01:12, us as being, in the view of many postmodern
00:40:01:14, 00:40:05:08, critics, a worldview that led to intolerance
00:40:05:10, 00:40:11:08, and a worldview that actually generated the potential for conflict and violence.
00:40:11:11, 00:40:16:01, You all know why postmodernity moved away from modernity on that point.
00:40:16:04, 00:40:20:20, And also, again a point I would love to discuss further with Mr.
00:40:20:23, 00:40:24:11, Hitchens, people like Alastair macintyre, other critics of
00:40:24:13, 00:40:27:08, modernity, make the point that its foundational
00:40:27:10, 00:40:30:07, judgments about the nature of reason, the
00:40:30:09, 00:40:33:09, nature of what is right, actually cannot be
00:40:33:11, 00:40:37:07, sustained on the basis of an appeal to history
00:40:37:10, 00:40:41:03, and reason itself. For macintyre and for many
00:40:41:05, 00:40:44:07, others, the enlightenment offers us a vision
00:40:44:09, 00:40:47:10, of a rationality and morality which actually
00:40:47:12, 00:40:50:17, are unattainable in practice. Again, we might
00:40:50:20, 00:40:53:23, want to have a discussion about morality and
00:40:54:01, 00:40:57:09, I fully accept that Mr. Hitchens is very committed
00:40:57:11, 00:41:00:10, to the moral vision, has a real sense of what
00:41:00:13, 00:41:03:11, is right and what is wrong, but I wonder if
00:41:03:13, 00:41:06:08, one can sustain that without some sort of
00:41:06:10, 00:41:12:02, metaphysical basis. And the point I would want to raise is this. Is an evolutionary
00:41:12:04, 00:41:15:17, kind of morality actually adequate to do the job?
00:41:15:19, 00:41:18:11, Richard Dawkins, with whom I disagree
00:41:18:14, 00:41:24:03, on many things in his selfish gene, makes the point that we alone have the capacity
00:41:24:05, 00:41:27:08, to react against our genes, to offer something
00:41:27:11, 00:41:30:09, better than we are genetically landed with.
00:41:30:12, 00:41:34:03, And it seems to me that is a very significant position.
00:41:34:05, 00:41:36:11, Or again, I discover that both Mr.
00:41:36:13, 00:41:42:07, Hitchens and I are lapsed marxists to take Antonio gramsci’s point. Gramsci made the
00:41:42:10, 00:41:47:02, point that in culture, moral values are manipulated
00:41:47:04, 00:41:51:09, by interest groups. How on earth can we defend
00:41:51:11, 00:41:53:21, ourselves against this? My real question,
00:41:53:23, 00:41:56:13, Mr. Hitchens, is can one have a viable moral
00:41:56:16, 00:42:01:01, system without some sort of transcendent basis of morality?
00:42:01:04, 00:42:06:07, I make this point not to challenge him as a moral thinker, but simply to ask
00:42:06:09, 00:42:09:01, whether one can actually do this. So I must
00:42:09:04, 00:42:14:02, end, and I do so if I may, by telling you a story based on my own northern Ireland.
00:42:14:05, 00:42:19:06, The story is told of two catholic nuns who were driving along one night when they ran
00:42:19:09, 00:42:24:04, out of gas. They realised they’d passed a gas station about 100 yards back, so they
00:42:24:07, 00:42:28:15, decided to walk back and fill up with gas. They rummaged about in the back of the car
00:42:28:17, 00:42:33:00, and they found a glass container which would do the job.
00:42:33:03, 00:42:35:11, Unfortunately, it was a medical
00:42:35:13, 00:42:39:07, specimen jar with the word urine written all over it.
00:42:39:09, 00:42:41:05, But it was all they had.
00:42:41:07, 00:42:43:15, They went back, filled up, and went to the car
00:42:43:17, 00:42:45:14, and started to pour this into the gas tank.
00:42:45:17, 00:42:49:15, A protestant farmer drove by on his tractor and he looked
00:42:49:18, 00:42:55:18, at them in utter astonishment and he said, “ladies, I don’t think much of your
00:42:55:20, 00:42:59:14, religion, but I certainly admire your faith.
00:42:59:16, 00:43:02:18, ” And as I hear mr hitchens speak, and as I
00:43:02:20, 00:43:06:01, enjoyed his writing, I find myself wondering
00:43:06:04, 00:43:09:08, if he too is a man of faith, a man who believes
00:43:09:11, 00:43:12:11, that even though we can’t absolutely justify
00:43:12:13, 00:43:16:09, certain beliefs, nevertheless we can trust them.
00:43:16:11, 00:43:22:08, He says, “our beliefs are not beliefs, but I think they are.” And the real question
00:43:22:10, 00:43:25:10, for me is in a world where reason and science
00:43:25:13, 00:43:29:00, do not deliver what we once thought they did
00:43:29:03, 00:43:32:11, on what can we base our lives if we are to
00:43:32:13, 00:43:35:21, know that we are truly living the good, the
00:43:35:23, 00:43:39:19, beautiful, and the true life. Thank you very much.
00:43:39:21, 00:43:46:19, [Applause]
00:43:46:21, 00:43:57:18, Mr hitchens will take the podium again.
00:43:57:20, 00:44:01:01, Michael wanted to do this sitting down, but
00:44:01:03, 00:44:05:16, it’s the old demagogue in me. I need the pulpit.
00:44:05:19, 00:44:09:06, I need the podium. And if I can’t be erect,
00:44:09:08, 00:44:12:16, at least I can be upright. By the way, do
00:44:12:18, 00:44:16:20, you know why the amish girl was excommunicated?
00:44:16:22, 00:44:20:17, Two men a night. Look, I’m going to take the
00:44:20:19, 00:44:26:11, doctor’s excellent points in order, if I may,
00:44:26:14, 00:44:31:20, and you will, I’m sure, have minds orderly
00:44:31:22, 00:44:34:11, enough to recall the order in which he made them.
00:44:34:14, 00:44:39:13, On the empirical evidence so-called adduced that a religious faith can lead to
00:44:39:15, 00:44:42:23, greater health and well-being, I, in a sense,
00:44:43:01, 00:44:45:16, do not doubt it. In other words, I can easily
00:44:45:18, 00:44:48:04, imagine that those who think they are the
00:44:48:06, 00:44:50:23, special object of a divine design feel better
00:44:51:02, 00:44:53:17, for thinking so. I just think it’s going to
00:44:53:19, 00:44:56:21, be very important for anyone claiming this
00:44:56:23, 00:45:00:06, to see the dismaying trap door that is right
00:45:00:09, 00:45:01:18, under their feet. If you’re going to claim
00:45:01:20, 00:45:03:22, this for one, how are you not going to claim it for all?
00:45:04:00, 00:45:07:20, Do we not hear incessantly that the Hamas organization in
00:45:07:23, 00:45:10:23, gaza is a provider of welfare to the poorest of the poor?
00:45:11:01, 00:45:13:14, Have we not heard this? Do we not hear that Louis
00:45:13:16, 00:45:16:23, farrakhan’s crackpot racist organization, the nation of
00:45:17:02, 00:45:20:08, islam, gets young people off drugs? For all I know, it’s true.
00:45:20:11, 00:45:23:07, It not only says nothing about the truth or validity of
00:45:23:09, 00:45:28:05, their theology, but it must say a certain amount, at least, about our willingness to
00:45:28:07, 00:45:32:05, think wishfully or cultishly, which was, if
00:45:32:07, 00:45:35:23, you like, part of my point to begin with.
00:45:36:02, 00:45:39:05, As to the center versus the fringe, I get this all the time.
00:45:39:07, 00:45:42:10, Don’t judge religion by its fundamentalists and its extremists.
00:45:42:12, 00:45:44:23, Why should I? I don’t have to. I judge it by its
00:45:45:01, 00:45:48:09, foundational texts and I judge it by the statements
00:45:48:11, 00:45:52:08, of its authorities. Take a case from the koran, just for once.
00:45:52:11, 00:45:54:23, Does it — actually, it’s not the koran, excuse me. Take a case from the
00:45:55:02, 00:45:59:15, Muslim foundational documents, the hadith, which have equal canonical authority.
00:45:59:17, 00:46:02:19, They say, if someone becomes an apostate, leaves or
00:46:02:21, 00:46:05:13, changes their religion, they must be killed.
00:46:05:15, 00:46:09:02, The sentence is death. Don’t anyone be telling
00:46:09:04, 00:46:14:12, me that’s a metaphor? Oh, it’s just intended as a sort of general admonition.
00:46:14:15, 00:46:17:23, No, it means what it says, and it’s been applied to
00:46:18:02, 00:46:20:07, a couple of people who now have to live, friends of
00:46:20:10, 00:46:22:10, mine, as a matter of fact, as political refugees
00:46:22:12, 00:46:27:06, in Washington, D.C., who know how true the impact of their hadith. There’s no wiggle
00:46:27:08, 00:46:30:03, room there, so the question for a Muslim must be asked.
00:46:30:05, 00:46:33:12, Do you think this is the word of god or don’t you? Because if
00:46:33:14, 00:46:36:22, you don’t, you’re saying that god shouldn’t be able to tell
00:46:37:01, 00:46:39:23, you to do an evil thing, and if you do, you’re
00:46:40:02, 00:46:42:23, saying he should. In either case, faith falls
00:46:43:02, 00:46:46:22, as a reinforcement of ordinary morality.
00:46:47:01, 00:46:50:11, Recently, Dr. McGrath is a member of the church of
00:46:50:13, 00:46:53:22, England, the anglican communion, the episcopalian
00:46:54:00, 00:46:56:23, communion, what George Herbert, my favorite
00:46:57:02, 00:47:01:03, religious poet after John donne, the sweet mediocrity of our
00:47:01:05, 00:47:04:23, native church is how he referred to it, the sea of canterbury.
00:47:05:02, 00:47:08:01, Everyone thinks it’s the mildest of all.
00:47:08:04, 00:47:12:17, It not only calls itself a flock, it looks very sheeplike.
00:47:12:19, 00:47:18:03, However, the bishop of Carlisle recently, the tipton told to be the next archbishop
00:47:18:06, 00:47:20:14, of canterbury, said that the floods in northern
00:47:20:17, 00:47:22:19, Yorkshire that devastated a large part of
00:47:22:22, 00:47:25:10, England in the summer and killed and dispossessed
00:47:25:12, 00:47:29:21, large and large people were punishment for homosexuality.
00:47:29:23, 00:47:32:16, To connect meteorology to morality seems to
00:47:32:18, 00:47:36:11, me, I have to say, flat out idiotic whichever way you do it.
00:47:36:13, 00:47:40:18, If there was a connection between meteorology and morality, which religion has
00:47:40:21, 00:47:45:18, very often argued that there is, I don’t see why the floods hit northern Yorkshire.
00:47:45:21, 00:47:48:21, I can think of some parts of London where they would
00:47:48:23, 00:47:51:16, have done a lot more good, just as the hurricane
00:47:51:18, 00:47:54:15, that devastated new Orleans we found punishment
00:47:54:17, 00:47:58:04, for sin as it must have been left the French quarter alone.
00:47:58:07, 00:48:02:03, You have to make up your mind on this. You either think god intervenes or he doesn’t.
00:48:02:05, 00:48:04:11, I’m clear. I say. I don’t think so.
00:48:04:13, 00:48:07:21, Will Dr. McGrath say that he does intervene and that
00:48:07:23, 00:48:09:23, we can tell when he does or will he not say
00:48:10:02, 00:48:12:16, so? You have to ask him. You have to hear his answer.
00:48:12:18, 00:48:16:13, Does he say sometimes intervenes or does he say he moves in mysterious ways?
00:48:16:16, 00:48:18:16, My position is clear. His remains, I think
00:48:18:18, 00:48:20:20, distinctly opaque. It was the archbishop of
00:48:20:22, 00:48:23:03, canterbury, Geoffrey Fisher, who said the
00:48:23:06, 00:48:25:14, following, that a nuclear war, thermonuclear
00:48:25:17, 00:48:28:14, war would only hasten our transition into a
00:48:28:16, 00:48:33:11, more blessed state into which we were bound to eventuate anyway.
00:48:33:14, 00:48:35:07, If I had told you that remark and asked you
00:48:35:10, 00:48:37:01, to guess, you would have said mahmoud abu
00:48:37:04, 00:48:40:10, jinnajat said it or some other fanatical verminous mullah.
00:48:40:12, 00:48:42:13, No. The archbishop of canterbury said
00:48:42:16, 00:48:45:05, it and why shouldn’t he? Because another immoral
00:48:45:08, 00:48:47:13, and sinister thing about religion is that
00:48:47:15, 00:48:52:05, lurking under it at all times in every one of its versions is a desire for this life
00:48:52:07, 00:48:55:09, to come to an end, for this poor world to be over.
00:48:55:11, 00:48:59:14, The yearning, the secret death wish that’s in all of it, let this be gone.
00:48:59:16, 00:49:02:03, Let us move to the next stage is present at all
00:49:02:06, 00:49:05:03, times unless it’s repudiated, which I invite
00:49:05:06, 00:49:07:23, Dr. McGrath to do. If he does so, I don’t
00:49:08:01, 00:49:11:02, see in what eschatological sense he can claim
00:49:11:04, 00:49:14:23, to remain a Christian and he can’t take it a la carte.
00:49:15:02, 00:49:20:13, If you claim or accept the one version, you have to accept the other.
00:49:20:15, 00:49:22:23, If it’s true in general that religion does one
00:49:23:02, 00:49:25:05, thing and some people do good from it, then
00:49:25:08, 00:49:27:02, you have to accept all the wicked acts that
00:49:27:04, 00:49:29:01, are attributable to it as well. I think you’ll
00:49:29:03, 00:49:31:05, find that those don’t quite equalize at the
00:49:31:07, 00:49:33:19, margin, depressing though that conclusion would be.
00:49:33:22, 00:49:36:15, I have a challenge which I have now put in print on the
00:49:36:18, 00:49:40:02, christianity today website, in the holy blossom synagogue in
00:49:40:04, 00:49:42:17, Toronto the night before last, in many other
00:49:42:19, 00:49:45:23, places and on the air and on the web and it’s this.
00:49:46:02, 00:49:48:12, If it’s to be argued that our morality,
00:49:48:14, 00:49:52:13, our ethics can be derived from the supernatural,
00:49:52:15, 00:49:56:05, then name me an action, a moral action taken
00:49:56:08, 00:49:59:03, by a believer or a moral statement uttered by
00:49:59:06, 00:50:03:22, one that could not have been made or uttered by an infidel, an unbeliever.
00:50:04:01, 00:50:07:17, I have tried this everywhere on a large number of people.
00:50:07:19, 00:50:11:21, I’ve not yet had even one reply. But if I was to ask you, can you think of a wicked
00:50:11:23, 00:50:13:22, action that could only have been performed by
00:50:14:00, 00:50:15:21, someone who believed they were on an errand
00:50:15:23, 00:50:20:18, from god, there isn’t one of you who would take 10 seconds to think of an example.
00:50:20:20, 00:50:24:17, And what does that tell us? I would say it tells us a lot.
00:50:24:20, 00:50:28:22, And here’s the bogus answer to it that was only very gently mentioned by
00:50:29:01, 00:50:32:01, Dr. McGrath this evening. Well, what about atheist nihilism?
00:50:32:04, 00:50:36:09, What about atheist cruelty? What about 20th century totalitarianism? I take
00:50:36:11, 00:50:39:03, this seriously enough to put a chapter in my book about it,
00:50:39:06, 00:50:43:07, available by the way at fine bookstores everywhere. And I can only
00:50:43:09, 00:50:47:03, summarize it now and I’ll do so very as tersely as I can.
00:50:47:06, 00:50:49:23, First, fascism, the original 20th century
00:50:50:02, 00:50:53:01, totalitarian movement, is really historically
00:50:53:04, 00:50:57:20, another name for the political activity of the catholic right wing. There is no other
00:50:57:23, 00:51:00:16, name for it. Francoism, salazarism, what happened
00:51:00:18, 00:51:03:02, in Croatia, in Austria, in Bavaria, and so
00:51:03:05, 00:51:06:14, on. The church keeps on trying to apologize for it, can’t apologize for it enough.
00:51:06:17, 00:51:09:10, It’s the catholic right, Mussolini. You can’t
00:51:09:13, 00:51:12:11, quite say that about Hitler, national socialism,
00:51:12:14, 00:51:15:09, that’s also based on nordic and pagan blood
00:51:15:11, 00:51:18:14, myths, leader worship, and so on, though Hitler
00:51:18:16, 00:51:21:17, never repudiated his membership of the church.
00:51:21:19, 00:51:24:20, And prayers were said for him on his birthday
00:51:24:22, 00:51:29:18, every year till the very end on the orders of the Vatican. And all of these facts are
00:51:29:20, 00:51:31:12, well known and the church still hasn’t found
00:51:31:14, 00:51:33:03, another way to apologize for that enough.
00:51:33:05, 00:51:37:01, And whatever it is you can call that, you can’t call it secular. You may not call it
00:51:37:03, 00:51:40:23, secular. By the way, Joseph goebbels was excommunicated
00:51:41:02, 00:51:44:01, from the catholic church. 50% according to
00:51:44:03, 00:51:48:05, Paul Johnson, the catholic historian of the waffen ss, were confessing catholics.
00:51:48:07, 00:51:51:09, None of them was ever threatened with excommunication,
00:51:51:11, 00:51:53:20, even threatened with it for taking part in
00:51:53:23, 00:51:58:11, the final solution. But Joseph goebbels was
00:51:58:13, 00:52:02:20, excommunicated for marrying a protestant.
00:52:02:23, 00:52:05:11, You see, we do have our standards.
00:52:05:13, 00:52:09:20, Now, okay, moving to marxism, moving to leninism. Okay,
00:52:09:22, 00:52:13:18, in Russia in 1917, for hundreds of years, millions of people
00:52:13:20, 00:52:16:20, have been told the head of the state is a supernatural power.
00:52:16:22, 00:52:19:03, The tsar is not just the head of the government,
00:52:19:06, 00:52:23:03, not just a king, but he stands between heaven and earth.
00:52:23:06, 00:52:27:15, And this has been inculcated in generations of Russians for hundreds of years.
00:52:27:17, 00:52:29:19, If you’re Joseph Stalin, himself a seminarian
00:52:29:22, 00:52:33:17, from Georgia, you shouldn’t be in the totalitarianism
00:52:33:20, 00:52:36:20, business if you can’t exploit a ready-made
00:52:36:22, 00:52:40:22, reservoir of credulity and servility that’s as big as that.
00:52:41:01, 00:52:44:15, It’s just waiting for you to capitalize on. So what do you do?
00:52:44:17, 00:52:47:03, Well, we’ll have an inquisition for one thing.
00:52:47:06, 00:52:49:02, We’ll have miracles for another. Lysenko’s
00:52:49:04, 00:52:51:02, biology will produce four harvests a year.
00:52:51:04, 00:52:53:06, We’ll have heresy hunts. We’ll tell everyone they must
00:52:53:09, 00:52:55:00, be grateful only to the leader for what they
00:52:55:03, 00:52:59:03, get and they must thank him and praise him all the time. And that they must be aware
00:52:59:06, 00:53:01:19, all the time of the existence of the counter-revolutionary
00:53:01:22, 00:53:04:16, devil who waits to — you see where I’m going with this?
00:53:04:18, 00:53:10:05, That’s not secularism. Michael? Oh, do I need really two? Okay.
00:53:10:08, 00:53:14:11, I’ll tell you my North Korea story is another time. Here’s the — it’s surrogate.
00:53:14:13, 00:53:17:05, It is at the very best and the very worst.
00:53:17:07, 00:53:21:02, The examples I’ve been talking about are a surrogate for
00:53:21:04, 00:53:23:10, messianism for the belief in ultimate history
00:53:23:12, 00:53:25:13, and the end of days and the conclusion of
00:53:25:15, 00:53:28:09, all things which is, I’ve tried to argue, I
00:53:28:11, 00:53:31:07, hope with some success, the problem to begin
00:53:31:10, 00:53:36:08, with, the replacement of reason by faith. The discarding of the one thing that makes
00:53:36:11, 00:53:42:08, us important and useful and different from other primates in favor of something that
00:53:42:11, 00:53:46:05, requires no evidence and just requires incantation.
00:53:46:07, 00:53:49:11, Not good for you. If Dr. McGrath or anyone
00:53:50:23, 00:53:53:23, else could come up with an example of a society
00:53:54:02, 00:53:56:19, which had fallen into slavery and bankruptcy
00:53:56:22, 00:53:59:17, and beggary and terror and misery because it
00:53:59:19, 00:54:02:12, had adopted the teachings and the precepts
00:54:02:15, 00:54:06:00, of spinoza and Einstein and Pierre bile and
00:54:06:03, 00:54:09:12, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas paine, then i’d
00:54:09:15, 00:54:14:23, be impressed and that would be a fair test on a level playing field but you will find
00:54:15:01, 00:54:17:10, no such example. Indeed the nearest such example
00:54:17:12, 00:54:19:17, we do have is these great United States, the
00:54:19:20, 00:54:22:10, first country in the world to have a constitution
00:54:22:13, 00:54:24:19, that forbids the mention of religion in the
00:54:24:21, 00:54:27:18, public square except by way of limiting it
00:54:27:21, 00:54:31:01, and saying that the state can take no interest
00:54:31:03, 00:54:33:10, in establishment of faith. Best known under
00:54:33:13, 00:54:36:21, the rubric of the wall of separation, my new slogan is Mr.
00:54:36:23, 00:54:39:12, Jefferson, build up that wall.
00:54:39:15, 00:54:44:04, Hope you’ll join me in it. Very quickly in my last minute.
00:54:44:07, 00:54:49:01, Yes, Dr. McGrath, you’re right, there is something about us as a species that
00:54:49:04, 00:54:51:09, is problematic and isn’t just explained by religion.
00:54:51:12, 00:54:53:17, Something about us that tempts us to do wrong.
00:54:53:19, 00:54:56:23, It’s pretty easily explained I think.
00:54:57:02, 00:55:00:15, We are primates, high primates but primates.
00:55:00:18, 00:55:06:02, We are half a chromosome away from chimpanzees and it shows, especially shows
00:55:06:04, 00:55:07:22, in the number of religions we invent to console
00:55:08:01, 00:55:09:15, ourselves or to give us things to quarrel
00:55:09:17, 00:55:13:07, with other primates about. If anything demonstrates
00:55:13:09, 00:55:16:17, that god is man made, not man god made, surely
00:55:17:20, 00:55:20:14, it is the religions erected by this quasi
00:55:20:16, 00:55:26:09, chimpanzee species and the harm that they’re willing to inflict on that basis.
00:55:26:11, 00:55:30:14, I think on the point of christology that you closed
00:55:30:17, 00:55:36:17, with, I ought not to take any more of the audience’s time but be prepared to discuss
00:55:36:19, 00:55:38:17, and I hope I’ve yielded back some of my time
00:55:38:19, 00:55:41:09, to questions and I’m grateful again for your indulgence.
00:55:41:11, 00:55:42:07, Thank you.
00:55:42:10, 00:55:47:19, Well, I’ll tell you what I think and you can make up your own minds about this.
00:55:47:22, 00:55:51:05, I think the resurrection is a historical event.
00:55:51:08, 00:55:55:08, Something that happened in history was seen as intriguing
00:55:55:11, 00:56:01:23, but not obviously interpreted as something of dramatic significance. The key question
00:56:02:02, 00:56:05:02, was not simply the history but also its meaning.
00:56:05:05, 00:56:07:20, And so in the new testament for example, we
00:56:07:22, 00:56:10:12, see debates taking place around the time of
00:56:10:14, 00:56:13:09, the resurrection which are primarily concerned
00:56:13:11, 00:56:16:03, what does this mean? In other words, something
00:56:16:06, 00:56:19:07, seems to have happened but it’s a historical event.
00:56:19:09, 00:56:25:02, What is the overall meaning of this event? And so for me that second question
00:56:25:04, 00:56:27:08, begins to emerge as being of major importance.
00:56:27:10, 00:56:29:09, And in the new testament we see a number of
00:56:29:12, 00:56:32:13, ideas beginning to emerge. The most important
00:56:32:16, 00:56:35:13, of these is that in some way Jesus had been
00:56:35:16, 00:56:38:20, demonstrated to have some sort of relationship
00:56:38:22, 00:56:41:10, with god that validated his teaching.
00:56:41:12, 00:56:45:14, In other words, that authorized him to speak with authority
00:56:45:16, 00:56:49:02, on what god was like. It’s a bit like interpreting
00:56:49:04, 00:56:51:15, something like Caesar crossing the rubicon.
00:56:51:18, 00:56:54:03, I mean you can think of that as having two
00:56:54:05, 00:56:56:21, different elements. On the one hand there is
00:56:56:23, 00:56:59:13, the physical event, the crossing of a river
00:56:59:16, 00:57:01:20, which of course in this case is not particularly
00:57:01:23, 00:57:03:21, difficult but then there is its historical
00:57:03:23, 00:57:06:21, significance in that the rubicon marked the
00:57:06:23, 00:57:09:22, boundary between the Roman colonies and Rome
00:57:10:01, 00:57:15:06, itself to cross that with an armory was in effect a declaration of war.
00:57:15:08, 00:57:18:21, So for me an historical event with a deeper theological
00:57:18:23, 00:57:21:16, significance and that significance it seems
00:57:21:19, 00:57:27:06, to me is articulated by the new testament in terms of first of all who Jesus Christ
00:57:27:08, 00:57:33:08, is but secondly also what the implications of this might be for human nature. And of
00:57:33:10, 00:57:38:20, course the Christian hope of eternal life, the very strong new testament declaration
00:57:38:23, 00:57:42:12, that we are people who have hope is very much
00:57:42:14, 00:57:45:20, grounded on that particular idea. Now Mr.
00:57:45:22, 00:57:48:10, Jenkins moved on and began to talk I think
00:57:48:12, 00:57:51:00, very interestingly about god as a celestial
00:57:51:02, 00:57:53:16, dictator and again I think that is a very
00:57:53:18, 00:57:56:11, significant idea. Now certainly I hear what
00:57:56:14, 00:57:59:15, he is saying but for me god is a celestial
00:57:59:18, 00:58:03:11, liberator and I wonder if we have a very different
00:58:03:13, 00:58:09:21, perspective on this same event. Is there a real difference here which we can justify
00:58:09:23, 00:58:13:09, in terms of metaphysics or is this simply a
00:58:13:12, 00:58:16:23, different perspective on how we see things?
00:58:19:18, 00:58:23:06, Mr. Hitchens clearly is emphasizing that religion
00:58:23:09, 00:58:26:15, can do some bad things and I want to say that
00:58:26:18, 00:58:32:21, I believe he is right to alert us to that and to avoid any uncritical evaluation of
00:58:32:23, 00:58:36:00, religion but there is this deeper side which
00:58:36:03, 00:58:39:07, I do want to just emphasize. The new testament
00:58:39:09, 00:58:41:22, talks about the truth setting you free.
00:58:42:00, 00:58:45:09, It talks about the glorious Liberty of the children
00:58:45:11, 00:58:48:13, of god and maybe we’ve lost that. Maybe somehow
00:58:48:16, 00:58:53:12, we’ve bound this up with all kinds of rituals and so on so we’ve lost sight of it.
00:58:53:14, 00:58:56:01, But as you read the new testament I think there
00:58:56:03, 00:58:59:16, is this outburst of energy of liberation that
00:58:59:18, 00:59:03:06, something has happened which has transformed
00:59:03:08, 00:59:06:03, the human situation, brought hope and at the
00:59:06:06, 00:59:11:17, same time liberated us from fear of death and also to do some very good things.
00:59:11:20, 00:59:16:04, Certainly we fail, certainly we fall but for me I think
00:59:16:06, 00:59:19:01, the idea of god as a celestial dictator is one
00:59:19:04, 00:59:24:07, that I don’t really recognize myself although I can see where it’s coming from. Mr.
00:59:24:09, 00:59:28:03, Hitchens then went on and issued a very powerful challenge
00:59:28:06, 00:59:31:14, against religion as any form of wishful thinking
00:59:31:17, 00:59:34:18, that provides consolation and again he makes
00:59:34:21, 00:59:37:22, a number of points that I think are perfectly fair.
00:59:38:00, 00:59:40:04, One of these is that wishful thinking
00:59:40:07, 00:59:43:14, is precisely that. It’s what we would like to be the case.
00:59:43:16, 00:59:45:04, It bears no relation to what
00:59:45:07, 00:59:50:00, actually is the case and also he makes the point that consolation
00:59:50:03, 00:59:53:01, is well I’ll put it like this, it’s for losers isn’t it?
00:59:53:03, 00:59:55:17, Certainly when I was an atheist myself I very much took
00:59:55:20, 01:00:01:10, the view that religion was for mad, bad or sad people and certainly you can see that
01:00:01:13, 01:00:03:23, emphasis on consolation would correspond very
01:00:04:02, 01:00:06:13, well with that third group. But I think there
01:00:06:15, 01:00:09:14, are some points we need to look at. The historical
01:00:09:16, 01:00:12:15, roots of this argument go back to Ludwig feuerbach
01:00:12:17, 01:00:16:01, in the year 1841 when he wrote his very famous
01:00:16:04, 01:00:19:10, book dealing with the essence of christianity
01:00:19:12, 01:00:23:07, and in that book he argues very lucidly along the lines Mr.
01:00:23:09, 01:00:28:10, Hitchens indicated that people believe in god because in some way this is
01:00:28:13, 01:00:31:15, about their aspirations, their hopes, their
01:00:31:17, 01:00:34:21, longings being actualized when of course there
01:00:34:23, 01:00:37:22, is no god to believe in. It’s simply we wish
01:00:38:01, 01:00:41:03, it were like this but we know it’s not and
01:00:41:06, 01:00:44:10, we’re in denial. So a belief in god is seen
01:00:44:12, 01:00:48:05, as a projection of some imaginary figure on
01:00:48:07, 01:00:52:10, some transcendent screen. Now I think feuerbach
01:00:52:12, 01:00:55:20, does make an important point but I want to
01:00:55:22, 01:00:59:09, make two points in response. Number one, the
01:00:59:12, 01:01:02:22, fact that we might wish something to be true
01:01:03:01, 01:01:06:11, certainly does not make it true but the fact
01:01:06:13, 01:01:12:01, that we wish something to be true does not make it false for that reason. For example
01:01:12:03, 01:01:16:04, you can hear my voice is beginning to dry up and I would very much like there to be
01:01:16:07, 01:01:19:19, some water and there is still some left i’m
01:01:19:21, 01:01:23:04, pleased to say but the point is my desire
01:01:23:07, 01:01:28:11, does not negate the reality. Thank you very much indeed.
01:01:28:13, 01:01:31:14, I’ll turn away and come to five.
01:01:39:14, 01:01:42:06, I think more interestingly is this.
01:01:42:09, 01:01:47:05, I wonder if atheism might also be a form of wishful thinking.
01:01:47:07, 01:01:51:21, Now again those who study cultural history will know that one of the points that
01:01:51:23, 01:01:54:19, is very often made is that the emergence of
01:01:54:21, 01:01:57:22, atheism as a significant historical phenomenon
01:01:58:00, 01:02:02:04, in the 18th century was this deep desire to change things.
01:02:02:06, 01:02:07:12, If there were no god we could do as we please. You all know Dostoevsky’s
01:02:07:14, 01:02:11:09, possessed where krylov makes this following comment.
01:02:11:12, 01:02:16:09, If there is a god I must do what god wants but if there is no god I do what
01:02:16:11, 01:02:21:21, I want. And again you can see atheism there is a kind of ethic of liberation.
01:02:21:23, 01:02:24:20, I’m able to do what I please there are no limits.
01:02:24:23, 01:02:27:23, And again you may have come across a very interesting
01:02:28:02, 01:02:30:20, essay by częzlo milosz in the New York times
01:02:30:23, 01:02:33:14, book review about ten years ago called the
01:02:33:16, 01:02:36:15, discrete charm of nihilism where he says look
01:02:36:17, 01:02:39:15, what has captivated us today is not the idea
01:02:39:17, 01:02:45:01, of religion as an escape from reality but the idea that there is no god and hence no
01:02:45:03, 01:02:49:14, accountability so we do what we please we are accountable to
01:02:49:16, 01:02:53:17, nobody. So I wonder if this argument actually works both ways.
01:02:53:19, 01:02:58:04, I think it’s certainly a very interesting possibility to explore.
01:02:58:07, 01:03:03:03, Now Mr. Hitchens then moved on to talk about mount sinai.
01:03:03:05, 01:03:06:16, He made a point which I think is an interesting point and
01:03:06:18, 01:03:09:02, one that I need to engage with. Mount sinai
01:03:09:04, 01:03:14:16, he said look changed everything. Are we to understand that people had no moral sense
01:03:14:18, 01:03:18:14, before this that somehow this brought morality into being.
01:03:18:17, 01:03:23:21, And I think well I would say and I think most Christian theologians would say
01:03:23:23, 01:03:26:22, something like this is that both the old and
01:03:27:01, 01:03:30:09, the new testaments are very very clear that
01:03:30:11, 01:03:33:15, there was human wisdom around long before
01:03:33:18, 01:03:37:04, sinai that to use Paul’s imagery that we are
01:03:37:06, 01:03:43:09, judged on the basis of what we do know where there is no knowledge of the law.
01:03:43:12, 01:03:48:01, What I would want to say is that the old testament and
01:03:48:04, 01:03:50:20, indeed the new testament do not kind of throw
01:03:50:22, 01:03:53:10, something down and say there that’s it you
01:03:53:13, 01:03:59:04, didn’t know about this before but to quote from that very interesting document fides
01:03:59:06, 01:04:03:21, et ratio faith and reason originating from the late hope.
01:04:03:23, 01:04:09:14, I mean that in some way grace does not abolish nature but rather perfects
01:04:09:16, 01:04:13:00, it. In other words it brings to fulfillment
01:04:13:03, 01:04:15:03, these basic human instincts about what is
01:04:15:05, 01:04:17:08, right and what is wrong correcting them when
01:04:17:11, 01:04:20:20, necessary but still fulfilling these longings
01:04:20:22, 01:04:24:02, for righteousness this desire to do what is
01:04:24:05, 01:04:29:06, right which I believe to be so fundamental a part of human nature. And therefore for
01:04:29:08, 01:04:32:21, me the Christian faith for example does not kind
01:04:32:23, 01:04:36:05, of throw down a series of arbitrary dictates
01:04:36:07, 01:04:39:06, but rather it builds on what is already there
01:04:39:08, 01:04:45:08, precisely because for christianity we are all god’s creation and god has planted if
01:04:45:10, 01:04:48:18, you like signals or reminders of what he is
01:04:48:20, 01:04:51:08, like or to use that wonderful phrase from
01:04:51:10, 01:04:53:23, Gerard manet Hopkins in some way nature and
01:04:54:02, 01:04:57:21, humanity is in stressed with the likeness of god.
01:04:57:23, 01:05:00:23, We then move on to talk about something
01:05:01:02, 01:05:03:21, that I think I touched on strixon’s talk
01:05:03:23, 01:05:07:06, about the tension between science and faith.
01:05:07:08, 01:05:09:22, I think I may have touched on that in my own talk
01:05:10:00, 01:05:12:04, so I won’t repeat that now other than to say
01:05:12:07, 01:05:15:07, that for me there is a very healthy convergence
01:05:15:10, 01:05:18:02, and mutual enrichment between science and
01:05:18:04, 01:05:21:10, faith but finally he also made a point which
01:05:21:12, 01:05:24:16, is basically that it seems very unjust that
01:05:24:19, 01:05:28:01, christianity teaches that redemption depends on
01:05:28:03, 01:05:33:08, explicit response to a gospel that’s preached when so many haven’t heard it.
01:05:33:10, 01:05:37:13, And I would certainly agree that that does seem very unjust
01:05:37:15, 01:05:43:07, but again the Christian tradition down the ages has been that the proclamation of the
01:05:43:10, 01:05:46:12, gospel brings things to fulfillment but where
01:05:46:15, 01:05:49:12, it has not been heard we are judged on the
01:05:49:15, 01:05:53:15, basis of what we do know and how we respond to it.
01:05:53:17, 01:06:00:12, Again grace does not abolish nature but perfects it. Thank you.
01:06:00:14, 01:06:03:22, Well thank you gentlemen this is where we
01:06:04:01, 01:06:07:12, now have a conversation and I have got some
01:06:07:14, 01:06:12:10, questions from the audience and if there are
01:06:12:12, 01:06:17:07, other questions i’m glad to receive them but
01:06:17:09, 01:06:22:06, I have some here. Now the first question obviously is for you Christopher since Mr.
01:06:22:08, 01:06:25:12, McGrath has just finished I would put the question
01:06:25:15, 01:06:28:09, to you which is if god does not exist on what
01:06:28:12, 01:06:33:05, basis can anyone say this action is right or this action is
01:06:33:08, 01:06:37:01, wrong? So whoever asked that only just came into the room right?
01:06:37:04, 01:06:39:17, I can’t believe that I didn’t say what I thought
01:06:39:19, 01:06:43:14, about it but I won’t repeat it because actually what Dr.
01:06:43:17, 01:06:49:09, McGrath just said I thought was unusually good on this point. You’ll recall what he
01:06:49:11, 01:06:52:12, said on the Dostoevsky matter. If god exists
01:06:52:15, 01:06:55:02, we have to do what he says if he doesn’t we
01:06:55:04, 01:06:57:16, can do what we like. Now just apply this for
01:06:57:18, 01:07:02:12, a second in practice and in theory. Is it not said of god’s
01:07:02:15, 01:07:09:01, chosen people and is it not said to them by god in the pentateuch
01:07:09:03, 01:07:14:14, that they can do exactly as they like to other people?
01:07:14:17, 01:07:19:05, They can enslave them, they can take their land, they can take their women, they
01:07:19:07, 01:07:23:12, can destroy all their young men, they can help themselves to all their virtues, they
01:07:23:15, 01:07:26:17, can do what anyone who had no sense of anything
01:07:26:19, 01:07:32:09, but their own rights would be able to do but in this case with divine permission.
01:07:32:12, 01:07:36:12, Doesn’t that make it somewhat more evil? In Iran where
01:07:36:15, 01:07:41:13, I’ve been, I’ve been to all three axes of evil countries by the way, I think I’m the
01:07:41:15, 01:07:43:23, only writer who can say that, you’re not allowed
01:07:44:02, 01:07:46:07, to sentence a woman who is a virgin to death
01:07:46:09, 01:07:48:11, even though she may have committed in the
01:07:48:14, 01:07:50:18, eyes of the mullahs a capital crime perhaps
01:07:50:20, 01:07:53:14, by showing her hair too often or her limbs.
01:07:53:17, 01:07:56:16, She can’t be sentenced to death. But religious
01:07:56:19, 01:07:58:22, law means she can be raped by the revolutionary
01:07:59:00, 01:08:00:13, gods and she’s not a virgin anymore.
01:08:00:15, 01:08:03:16, Then they can kill her. Do what thou wilt shall
01:08:03:19, 01:08:06:18, be the whole of the law used to be considered
01:08:06:20, 01:08:12:09, the motto of satanism as I recall. Divine permission given to people who think they
01:08:12:12, 01:08:15:23, have god on their side enables actions that
01:08:16:01, 01:08:19:09, a normal, morally normal unbeliever would
01:08:19:12, 01:08:23:22, not contemplate the mutilation of genitalia of children.
01:08:24:01, 01:08:29:20, Who would do that if it wasn’t decided that god wanted it? Just as when the
01:08:29:23, 01:08:33:05, poet in England gets the poet laureate ship
01:08:33:07, 01:08:35:20, they start to write drivel instead of poetry
01:08:35:23, 01:08:38:09, for some reason. It’s the king’s scroffula
01:08:38:12, 01:08:41:22, the other way around. Morally normal and intelligent
01:08:42:00, 01:08:47:17, people find themselves saying fatuously wicked things when this subject comes up.
01:08:47:19, 01:08:52:01, The suicide bombing community is entirely faith based.
01:08:52:03, 01:08:56:13, The genital mutilation community is entirely faith based.
01:08:56:15, 01:08:59:04, Slavery is mandated by the Bible.
01:08:59:06, 01:09:01:19, People keep hearing how many abolitionists
01:09:01:22, 01:09:04:14, were christians. Well it was about time that
01:09:04:16, 01:09:09:08, they took a stand against it having mandated it for so long.
01:09:09:11, 01:09:12:00, So it’s not even a tautology
01:09:12:03, 01:09:15:04, I think to say that there’s a relationship
01:09:15:07, 01:09:18:09, between the human impulse to do evil, to be
01:09:18:12, 01:09:20:23, selfish, to be self-centered, to be greedy
01:09:21:02, 01:09:23:18, and a contrast between that and faith because
01:09:23:21, 01:09:26:20, given only faith mountains can be moved and
01:09:26:22, 01:09:29:22, millions of people who would never normally
01:09:29:23, 01:09:31:23, acquiesce in evil are brought to it straight
01:09:32:02, 01:09:34:04, away and with ease and with self-righteousness.
01:09:34:06, 01:09:36:15, There. That’s my answer to that.
01:09:36:18, 01:09:40:07, And the questioner did not answer my challenge.
01:09:40:10, 01:09:43:03, Name an ethical statement made or action performed
01:09:43:05, 01:09:45:18, by a believer in the name of faith that couldn’t
01:09:45:20, 01:09:48:20, have been by an infidel and name if you can,
01:09:48:23, 01:09:51:19, this is easier, a wicked action that could
01:09:51:21, 01:09:55:06, only be mandated by faith and then you’ll see
01:09:55:09, 01:09:58:19, how silly your question was wherever you were.
01:09:58:21, 01:10:02:06, Well let me ask it then. Christopher, did
01:10:02:09, 01:10:06:00, you, you heard professor McGrath also though
01:10:06:02, 01:10:08:19, condemn any form of religious violence?
01:10:08:22, 01:10:12:23, That’s easy to do. I mean I could say, look, an atheist
01:10:13:01, 01:10:18:10, can be a nihilist. I think there’s room for agreement here between the two of you.
01:10:18:12, 01:10:22:02, I’m not looking for consensus, baby, I’m just
01:10:22:04, 01:10:26:17, not in the mood. I’m not in the vein as king Richard says.
01:10:26:20, 01:10:28:01, Not in the vein. No.
01:10:28:04, 01:10:31:20, I’m glad he condemns religious violence. Does he condemn
01:10:31:22, 01:10:36:12, the promise of other people’s territory to the chosen people? For
01:10:36:14, 01:10:39:15, example, does Jesus say or does he not say I come to bring not
01:10:39:18, 01:10:41:15, peace but a sword? He does say that. Should
01:10:41:18, 01:10:48:15, I take it literally or metaphorically? Is genital mutilation of small boys mandated
01:10:48:18, 01:10:52:16, by Jews and is it often mandated by muslims or not?
01:10:52:19, 01:10:55:12, Is there a paradise to which people
01:10:55:14, 01:10:59:05, can hope to get by dying for their faith or isn’t there?
01:10:59:08, 01:11:04:09, Has holy war been proclaimed by both the pope and by the mullahs or not?
01:11:04:11, 01:11:06:20, These are problems not for me.
01:11:06:22, 01:11:09:05, For me it’s simple. We’re primates. This is what
01:11:09:07, 01:11:11:06, we would expect to happen if there was no god.
01:11:11:08, 01:11:15:01, This is what we would expect to see if faith was pointless.
01:11:15:03, 01:11:20:12, But it’s an endless mystery where none exists if you think there’s an intervening
01:11:20:15, 01:11:23:22, finger from on high. Then it becomes mysterious.
01:11:24:00, 01:11:26:17, Thank you. Okay, quite. You’re welcome.
01:11:26:20, 01:11:29:19, For professor McGrath, here’s a question.
01:11:29:21, 01:11:32:04, I would like to hear you expound on Mr.
01:11:32:06, 01:11:35:10, Hitchens’ claim that the idea of a vicarious sacrifice
01:11:35:13, 01:11:41:18, is immoral or unethical. What is christianity’s explanation of this? Certainly.
01:11:41:21, 01:11:44:16, Well, the phrase vicarious sacrifice isn’t actually
01:11:44:18, 01:11:47:02, a biblical phrase. It’s a phrase that’s used
01:11:47:04, 01:11:50:07, by some writers to refer to a particular interpretation
01:11:50:10, 01:11:52:19, of a biblical teaching. And the key idea in
01:11:52:22, 01:11:55:09, the new testament is that in some way the
01:11:55:11, 01:11:58:08, death of Christ, again violence done to Christ,
01:11:58:10, 01:12:01:21, not violence done by Christ, is seen as having
01:12:01:23, 01:12:05:07, a transformative potential for human beings.
01:12:05:09, 01:12:08:07, And this transformative potential is articulated
01:12:08:09, 01:12:12:21, using a range of models, some of which are drawn from the old testament.
01:12:12:23, 01:12:16:21, For example, there’s an analogy drawn with animal sacrifice.
01:12:16:23, 01:12:19:22, And that is seen as in some way establishing
01:12:20:01, 01:12:23:03, a link between Christ’s death and the bringing
01:12:23:05, 01:12:25:23, of the possibility of purity to someone.
01:12:26:01, 01:12:29:10, That is one of the images used. Others include,
01:12:29:12, 01:12:32:02, for example, the whole idea of healing, the
01:12:32:04, 01:12:35:05, idea of being set in a right relationship with god.
01:12:35:08, 01:12:36:20, There are a wide range of these.
01:12:36:22, 01:12:39:09, Now, Mr. Hitchens, particular criticism — which
01:12:39:11, 01:12:42:06, of them is yours? I’d really like to know. I’ll tell you right now. Please.
01:12:42:09, 01:12:45:01, I want to make sure that I do justice to both
01:12:45:03, 01:12:47:22, the question asked and your criticism made.
01:12:48:01, 01:12:50:11, For me, and I will speak now very personally because I
01:12:50:14, 01:12:53:02, think I’ve been invited to and I’m very happy to do that.
01:12:53:05, 01:12:57:19, For me, the death of Christ on the cross means that something that I could
01:12:57:21, 01:13:02:09, never gain for myself has been done for me and offered to me.
01:13:02:11, 01:13:08:08, In other words, it is something that by myself as a human being I could never
01:13:08:10, 01:13:11:18, hope to achieve is achieved on my behalf and
01:13:11:20, 01:13:15:13, offered to me and I am asked, “will you accept
01:13:15:16, 01:13:19:05, what has been done for you?” In other words,
01:13:19:08, 01:13:22:20, it is about the possibility of transformation
01:13:22:22, 01:13:26:21, being offered to me but not being imposed upon me.
01:13:26:23, 01:13:29:20, For me, that is about a god who offers
01:13:29:23, 01:13:34:03, but does not demand that I respond to him in this way.
01:13:34:05, 01:13:39:00, I find that to be a very good summary of what Christian faith is trying
01:13:39:03, 01:13:42:12, to say about a god who offers but does not impose.
01:13:42:14, 01:13:47:08, Again, those of you who are familiar with new testament will think of the imagery
01:13:47:10, 01:13:49:20, of revelation chapter 3 which speaks of Christ
01:13:49:22, 01:13:56:20, knocking on the door and asking us to open but leaving that action open to us.
01:13:56:22, 01:14:01:22, Not imposed. Did you really say not imposed?
01:14:02:01, 01:14:09:02, What if you reject this offer? What have you been told for centuries by christians?
01:14:09:04, 01:14:11:20, If you reject this offer that took place by means
01:14:11:23, 01:14:14:06, of a torture to death of a human being that
01:14:14:08, 01:14:17:09, you did not want and should have prevented if you could.
01:14:17:12, 01:14:19:01, What if you reject the offer?
01:14:19:04, 01:14:23:21, If you accept it, you have eternal life and your sins are forgiven. Oh, great.
01:14:23:23, 01:14:27:11, What a horrible way to abolish your own responsibility
01:14:27:13, 01:14:30:06, and get your own bliss. I do not want it.
01:14:30:09, 01:14:32:09, You do not? Then you go to hell.
01:14:32:11, 01:14:36:23, This is not imposed? This has not been preached to children
01:14:37:02, 01:14:41:15, by gruesome elderly virgins backed by force for centuries?
01:14:41:17, 01:14:44:17, This has not poisoned whole societies?
01:14:44:20, 01:14:47:11, No. Of course it is not voluntary.
01:14:47:13, 01:14:51:14, The pope of Rome, the bishop of Rome,
01:14:51:16, 01:14:56:21, Mr. Ratzinger, has recently said actually it is
01:14:56:23, 01:14:59:08, worse than that. Only my version of christianity
01:14:59:10, 01:15:01:16, can get you salvation. There is only one way.
01:15:01:18, 01:15:05:11, I say it in Georgetown. There is only one. You presumably do not believe that because
01:15:05:14, 01:15:09:02, you are an anglican. But on what basis do you tell the pope that he is a heretic?
01:15:09:04, 01:15:11:18, Once you Grant this stuff, once you start with
01:15:11:20, 01:15:14:07, this white noise chat about redemption, where
01:15:14:10, 01:15:16:19, is it going to end? Of course there is nothing
01:15:16:22, 01:15:19:03, voluntary about it. I must say the book of
01:15:19:05, 01:15:23:04, revelation seems one of the less voluntary texts.
01:15:23:06, 01:15:28:05, All it does is look forward gleefully to apocalypse, to passing
01:15:28:07, 01:15:32:14, away of this veil of tears into our ultimate destruction.
01:15:32:17, 01:15:36:08, This is morality? I do not think so.
01:15:36:10, 01:15:38:06, Well, I think I would like to just build on
01:15:38:08, 01:15:42:18, that because I think a very interesting line of discussion has opened up here.
01:15:42:20, 01:15:47:03, Number one, I think I do challenge your reading of the
01:15:47:06, 01:15:52:04, book of revelation. The book of revelation is very much saying to christians who are
01:15:52:06, 01:15:55:12, being persecuted for their faith by a secular
01:15:55:15, 01:15:58:23, authority, who are in effect being victimized,
01:15:59:01, 01:16:01:01, that this is not the way it is going to remain,
01:16:01:03, 01:16:02:21, that one day there will be an inversion of
01:16:02:23, 01:16:05:06, the world order. It is in effect an encouragement
01:16:05:09, 01:16:07:09, to those who are suffering. And again I make
01:16:07:12, 01:16:10:02, my point again that christianity is saying,
01:16:10:05, 01:16:13:09, look, here is an offer. It is yours to accept or not.
01:16:13:11, 01:16:17:19, I take it you do not believe in hell or anything like that, and therefore I do
01:16:17:21, 01:16:24:19, not see what the difficulty is for you personally. It is not about imposition.
01:16:24:21, 01:16:28:21, You are in the right church but the wrong pew.
01:16:28:23, 01:16:32:10, I mean, yes, of course I have emancipated
01:16:32:12, 01:16:35:11, myself from all that nonsense I wish you would do too.
01:16:35:13, 01:16:37:06, I am saying what is the belief?
01:16:37:09, 01:16:38:19, And when you say it is voluntary, it is up to you.
01:16:38:21, 01:16:41:02, It is entirely optional. I do not think it is any more optional
01:16:41:05, 01:16:43:18, than Abraham saying to his son, do you want to come for a long
01:16:43:21, 01:16:47:10, and gloomy walk? Because god seems to be telling
01:16:47:13, 01:16:50:19, me to do something that had better be moral.
01:16:50:21, 01:16:53:04, Otherwise it would have to be said that god
01:16:53:07, 01:16:55:17, had taken a perfectly normal person and asked
01:16:55:19, 01:16:58:03, him to commit an atrocity. Where else could
01:16:58:05, 01:17:00:16, that have come from? Millions of people every
01:17:00:18, 01:17:04:04, year celebrate this act of sadomasochism as
01:17:04:06, 01:17:07:16, if it proved that god loved us so much that
01:17:07:18, 01:17:11:21, he would make us kill our own children and then he decides to love us so much he will
01:17:11:23, 01:17:17:23, kill one of his own. You said in a debate with Richard Dawkins, I have it down, you
01:17:18:02, 01:17:22:06, said the great thing about god is he knows what it is like to lose a son.
01:17:22:08, 01:17:26:10, Now I want you ladies and gentlemen to ponder that expression.
01:17:26:12, 01:17:29:09, First, it is self-evidently if the story is
01:17:29:11, 01:17:32:01, true, which I do not think it is. It is self-evidently
01:17:32:04, 01:17:35:04, not the case even in the narrative. He does not lose a son.
01:17:35:06, 01:17:39:23, He lends one. He does not offer one because no one has demanded it.
01:17:40:01, 01:17:42:08, There is no problem that has so far been identified
01:17:42:10, 01:17:44:22, in the human species that demands a human sacrifice.
01:17:45:01, 01:17:48:01, For what problem, for what ill is this a cure?
01:17:48:03, 01:17:50:19, There is no argument, there is no evidence.
01:17:50:22, 01:17:52:12, No, it is imposed upon you.
01:17:52:14, 01:17:55:03, I am doing this because the prophets said
01:17:55:06, 01:17:58:17, I would and I am going to have the boy tortured
01:17:58:19, 01:18:02:03, to death in public to fulfill ancient screeds
01:18:02:06, 01:18:06:12, of bronze age judaism. But wait, I do not want
01:18:06:14, 01:18:11:04, it. I do not need it. I do not feel better for it.
01:18:11:06, 01:18:16:11, I feel very uneasy about it. Well, that is a pity because then you are going
01:18:16:13, 01:18:19:22, to be cast into eternal fire. This is no way to talk.
01:18:20:01, 01:18:24:03, I do not like to be addressed in that tone of voice. So I
01:18:24:06, 01:18:29:02, have to, to all this I have to return a slight non-serviad, if
01:18:29:04, 01:18:32:21, I may be so bold, and take my chances morally.
01:18:32:23, 01:18:36:00, That is the more ethical thing to do.
01:18:36:03, 01:18:39:12, I do not want torture. I do not want human sacrifice.
01:18:39:14, 01:18:42:06, I do not want authoritarian blood lettings,
01:18:42:08, 01:18:45:01, smoking temples and altars, incantations of
01:18:45:04, 01:18:47:18, priests around all of this. I do not want
01:18:47:21, 01:18:49:16, it. I cannot think of a single thing it will
01:18:49:18, 01:18:51:17, make better about our… Let me see a professor
01:18:51:19, 01:18:53:23, of veil of tears. Oh yes, by all means.
01:18:54:02, 01:18:57:03, Sorry if I bang on a bit about this. Do not worry,
01:18:57:06, 01:18:59:22, I will interrupt. I do not want those things either.
01:19:00:00, 01:19:02:04, And I think that nobody here really would.
01:19:02:06, 01:19:04:16, I think that one can interpret these
01:19:04:19, 01:19:08:01, things in these ways. You do and I appreciate that.
01:19:08:03, 01:19:11:17, But I want to make the point there are many other ways of looking at these within
01:19:11:20, 01:19:14:07, the Christian tradition and that it is very
01:19:14:09, 01:19:16:18, important to say that there are other ways
01:19:16:20, 01:19:21:04, of making sense of this and I think we need to get some of them on the table.
01:19:21:06, 01:19:24:10, For me, and again I want to emphasize this point,
01:19:24:13, 01:19:27:09, the Christian vision of god is not a god who
01:19:27:12, 01:19:30:20, leaves us on our own, but a god who chooses
01:19:30:22, 01:19:34:07, to enter into time and history where we are
01:19:34:10, 01:19:39:03, in order to make possible for us, if we want it, a transformation of our situation.
01:19:39:05, 01:19:42:19, After 98,000 years of abstention. I do not see any
01:19:42:22, 01:19:46:15, need to say this needs to torture anything like that.
01:19:46:17, 01:19:48:14, If it does, that needs to be challenged.
01:19:48:16, 01:19:51:01, But the point for me is this is about something
01:19:51:04, 01:19:55:11, being offered to us with enormous potential for change.
01:19:55:13, 01:19:58:13, Let me ask a question of Mr. Hitchens.
01:19:58:16, 01:20:02:11, As someone who considers himself a high primate,
01:20:02:14, 01:20:04:22, it seems strange that you would consider
01:20:05:00, 01:20:07:15, loving and witnessing the truth an obligation.
01:20:07:18, 01:20:13:05, Would you explain how a soulless primate can have any obligations?
01:20:13:07, 01:20:17:01, Well, it is a question one often asks oneself.
01:20:17:04, 01:20:20:11, For example, why do I care? Why do I mind
01:20:20:13, 01:20:25:11, about other primates? I think I know that because I hope that they will, at the very
01:20:25:13, 01:20:27:03, lowest I would say, because I hope they will
01:20:27:05, 01:20:29:03, mind about me in return. I will give you an example.
01:20:29:05, 01:20:29:23, Why should they?
01:20:30:02, 01:20:33:02, Why indeed? Why does one do the right thing
01:20:33:05, 01:20:36:22, or in hopes is the right thing when no one is looking?
01:20:36:23, 01:20:40:14, Why does a Muslim cab driver go to all the trouble to come back to my apartment
01:20:40:16, 01:20:44:14, building when I didn’t have his number to return a large sum of money I left on his
01:20:44:16, 01:20:47:07, back seat and said it was his religious duty?
01:20:47:10, 01:20:49:19, But if I allow him to say that that’s his
01:20:49:22, 01:20:51:17, religious duty, what am I going to say when
01:20:51:20, 01:20:53:14, he says it’s his religious duty to veil his
01:20:53:16, 01:20:58:09, wife or to blow himself up or to impose sharia law?
01:20:58:12, 01:21:02:01, If you Grant it once, you have to Grant
01:21:02:04, 01:21:04:12, the whole thing. You can’t do it a la carte.
01:21:04:14, 01:21:07:21, Now, I will give you an example from my old socialist days.
01:21:07:23, 01:21:12:10, It will bring the moisture to the eyes of Dr. McGrath as well.
01:21:12:12, 01:21:15:04, It was our favorite example of professor Peter townsend’s
01:21:15:06, 01:21:17:07, book on the gift relationship. You remember,
01:21:17:09, 01:21:19:01, why does the British national health service
01:21:19:03, 01:21:20:23, never run out of blood though you’re not allowed
01:21:21:02, 01:21:23:22, to charge for it? You have to give it free.
01:21:24:00, 01:21:27:20, Never runs out of blood because people like to give blood.
01:21:27:22, 01:21:29:09, They want to feel useful.
01:21:29:12, 01:21:31:16, I like to do it. I like it very much.
01:21:31:19, 01:21:35:13, And I’m not a masochist and I don’t particularly like being stuck.
01:21:35:15, 01:21:38:11, But I like the way that I lose — if someone gains a pint
01:21:38:13, 01:21:41:06, and I don’t lose one because I replenish it quite quickly.
01:21:41:09, 01:21:45:02, Someone’s instantly better off. I haven’t had to abnicate myself by giving anything
01:21:45:04, 01:21:49:05, away. I like the fact that I’m helping someone
01:21:49:07, 01:21:54:13, who I don’t know. And as it happens, I have a very rare blood group indeed.
01:21:54:15, 01:21:57:06, And one day I’m going to have to count on other people
01:21:57:08, 01:22:02:17, feeling the same way. So human solidarity will get you quite a long way ethically.
01:22:02:20, 01:22:05:14, And there’s every reason why that should be in
01:22:05:16, 01:22:08:10, our genes, in our — so to speak — inscribed.
01:22:08:13, 01:22:10:08, We wouldn’t have got this far if we didn’t
01:22:10:10, 01:22:12:08, have these qualities. To say we couldn’t have
01:22:12:10, 01:22:18:20, them without celestial permission seems to me to be simply slavish. And if we’re all
01:22:18:22, 01:22:21:06, made in god’s image, then how come there are so
01:22:21:08, 01:22:23:15, many sociopaths who don’t notice the existence
01:22:23:17, 01:22:26:14, of other people or so many psychopaths for
01:22:26:16, 01:22:29:19, whom it’s a positive pleasure to inflict pain?
01:22:29:22, 01:22:32:17, None of these — all of these are easily, easily
01:22:32:20, 01:22:35:08, solved questions if you make the assumption
01:22:35:10, 01:22:37:17, of evolution by natural selection and consider
01:22:37:20, 01:22:39:21, us as an animal species. If you detect the
01:22:39:23, 01:22:42:16, finger of god in all this, you invent myriad
01:22:42:18, 01:22:45:15, problems that do not exist and cannot be solved
01:22:45:17, 01:22:49:02, and that are actually a waste of our mentality.
01:22:49:05, 01:22:52:12, Occam’s razor disposes of all the supernatural
01:22:52:14, 01:22:54:07, assumptions that have ever been made.
01:22:54:10, 01:22:57:07, We have better and more elegant explanations for everything
01:22:57:09, 01:22:59:23, that happens in our cosmos and in our biology now.
01:23:00:02, 01:23:01:23, And if we’d had these to begin with,
01:23:02:01, 01:23:04:07, there would never have been a foothold for the
01:23:04:09, 01:23:07:15, death cult of christianity or islam or judaism.
01:23:07:17, 01:23:11:06, Well, perhaps I could just take us on the stage further.
01:23:11:08, 01:23:15:09, I mean, I think what you seem to be saying is that we’re able to offer a
01:23:15:11, 01:23:17:17, complete scientific account of things which
01:23:17:19, 01:23:21:23, eliminates any place for the transcendent. And I want if I could — I’m sorry.
01:23:22:02, 01:23:24:18, If I may. Not that — I wanted to speak to this and I will
01:23:24:20, 01:23:27:22, later, but transcendent and the numinous are very important.
01:23:28:00, 01:23:30:18, They’re not to be confused with the supernatural.
01:23:30:20, 01:23:32:19, I would want to say that the word transcendent
01:23:32:21, 01:23:34:11, means a number of different things. And
01:23:34:13, 01:23:36:21, certainly the supernatural can be one of those.
01:23:36:23, 01:23:39:14, But it can also mean some sort of sense that there
01:23:39:16, 01:23:43:03, is something beyond us. And I don’t think we need to use the word supernatural.
01:23:43:05, 01:23:45:23, I’m thinking of Iris Murdoch’s idea in, for example,
01:23:46:02, 01:23:48:09, the sovereignty of good, where she tries to
01:23:48:12, 01:23:52:05, posit something which though beyond us, nevertheless
01:23:52:08, 01:23:55:06, elicits a response to us. For example, in
01:23:55:08, 01:23:58:13, trying to articulate what the notion of good actually is.
01:23:58:15, 01:24:01:10, And it seems to me that science actually is
01:24:01:12, 01:24:04:10, extremely good at clarifying the relationship
01:24:04:12, 01:24:06:21, between the different levels of material order.
01:24:06:23, 01:24:09:00, But when it comes to questions of meaning
01:24:09:03, 01:24:11:10, or value, which might well include transcendent
01:24:11:12, 01:24:14:08, meanings, it actually doesn’t really help us very much.
01:24:14:10, 01:24:18:09, And so I would want to suggest that actually science offers us one level
01:24:18:12, 01:24:21:06, of explanation of the way things are, but it
01:24:21:09, 01:24:24:02, does not prevent us from adding extra levels
01:24:24:05, 01:24:27:15, of meaning on top of that. And it seems to me that that is one of the reasons why one
01:24:27:17, 01:24:30:04, can talk about the dynamic interaction between
01:24:30:06, 01:24:32:20, science and religion, because they are certainly
01:24:32:22, 01:24:35:02, engaging with the same reality, but they’re
01:24:35:04, 01:24:37:09, offering different perspectives or different
01:24:37:11, 01:24:39:17, levels of engagement with that same thing.
01:24:39:19, 01:24:44:15, You have a response to that a bit?
01:24:44:17, 01:24:47:07, No. I think it should stand alone.
01:24:47:09, 01:24:49:11, No, next I would say.
01:24:49:13, 01:24:52:00, Yes, okay. Professor McGrath, here’s the next question.
01:24:52:03, 01:24:53:13, You said that acts of violence in
01:24:53:16, 01:24:56:13, the name of god come from the fringes of religion.
01:24:56:15, 01:24:59:01, But god has ordered many acts of violence,
01:24:59:03, 01:25:01:23, for instance in the old testament, that killed thousands.
01:25:02:02, 01:25:04:14, Is god on the fringe of his own religion?
01:25:04:17, 01:25:10:14, Well clearly the way that question is phrased actually in effect answers itself.
01:25:10:16, 01:25:15:03, I would not wish to set out quite like that, and therefore
01:25:15:05, 01:25:19:12, I’d like to try and offer an answer which goes like this.
01:25:19:15, 01:25:24:12, I’m a Christian, and obviously I read the old testament, and one of the questions
01:25:24:14, 01:25:27:10, is how on earth do I make sense of those passages
01:25:27:13, 01:25:29:22, which seem to, at least on the face of it,
01:25:30:01, 01:25:37:14, authorize acts of killing and so on, which I personally find very, very disagreeable.
01:25:37:17, 01:25:40:10, For me as a Christian, as I was saying, a
01:25:40:13, 01:25:45:06, fundamental theme here is that Christ is the fulfillment of a law on the prophets.
01:25:45:08, 01:25:48:00, In other words, not simply that he brings to fulfillment
01:25:48:03, 01:25:51:04, their intentions, but that in some way he is
01:25:51:07, 01:25:54:08, authorized to show us what these are really
01:25:54:10, 01:25:56:16, meant to be like. In other words, that there are
01:25:56:19, 01:25:59:02, other interpretations, but these are relativized
01:25:59:04, 01:26:02:15, or placed to one side because of who Jesus is and what he did.
01:26:02:17, 01:26:06:18, Therefore I would want to look at the old testament through this
01:26:06:21, 01:26:09:16, lens and say that I believe it allows us to
01:26:09:18, 01:26:14:13, look at these passages and challenge the most natural interpretations.
01:26:14:15, 01:26:17:03, For me one of the great themes of Christian
01:26:17:06, 01:26:19:23, history is the idea of what I call progressive
01:26:20:02, 01:26:22:20, revelation, that we gain a firmer understanding
01:26:22:23, 01:26:25:16, of what god is like as time goes on, and above
01:26:25:19, 01:26:28:04, all, for example, through the revelation of Christ.
01:26:28:07, 01:26:29:21, Again, whether you’re a protestant
01:26:29:23, 01:26:32:14, or a catholic, you might talk about the continued
01:26:32:16, 01:26:35:05, guidance of the holy spirit or indeed continued
01:26:35:07, 01:26:39:08, reflection on the part of the church, but the engagement of the scripture is dynamic
01:26:39:10, 01:26:45:00, and ongoing. It’s not really something that’s been ended in the past.
01:26:45:02, 01:26:47:18, Okay from Mr. Hitchens. Sorry, can I comment
01:26:47:21, 01:26:51:02, on that just briefly or was I not invited to do so?
01:26:51:04, 01:26:52:04, Please do so.
01:26:52:07, 01:26:54:11, Well, some of the early Christian church fathers,
01:26:54:13, 01:26:56:08, I think you’ll correct me if I’m wrong, I
01:26:56:11, 01:26:59:05, think marcion was among them, did contemplate
01:26:59:08, 01:27:01:22, starting a movement that was just basically
01:27:02:00, 01:27:05:11, Christian based on what was understood or
01:27:05:13, 01:27:09:09, believed about the apparent very opaque brief
01:27:09:11, 01:27:15:03, life of Jesus of nazareth and not inherit, not force upon themselves as St.
01:27:15:06, 01:27:18:04, Paul had suggested, the ghastly, gruesome Jewish
01:27:18:06, 01:27:20:17, books of the old testament to start again.
01:27:20:19, 01:27:23:11, I think they might have done better to do that
01:27:23:14, 01:27:26:09, because having decided that they inherit all that,
01:27:26:11, 01:27:29:10, they do inherit, in particular, the most wicked
01:27:29:12, 01:27:32:02, and immoral doctrine of the lot, which is
01:27:32:04, 01:27:36:01, original sin in Adam and the expiation by the sacrifice of
01:27:36:04, 01:27:40:04, children, human sacrifice of children, than which I don’t think any
01:27:40:06, 01:27:43:22, morally normal person can think of anything more repulsive.
01:27:44:01, 01:27:50:10, So that it is, I’m afraid, innate that there is to be cruelty and violence
01:27:50:13, 01:27:56:12, and fanaticism in the religion and the responsibility is not expiable.
01:27:56:15, 01:27:58:13, Bizarrely, I mean, many people think, well, the
01:27:58:15, 01:28:00:15, old testament is true, it’s full of bloodletting,
01:28:00:18, 01:28:06:01, it recommends genocide, extermination, slavery, dispossession, all of these things.
01:28:06:04, 01:28:08:10, The new testament is more meek and mild, I’ve given
01:28:08:12, 01:28:10:07, you my comment on that, it’s the first time
01:28:10:09, 01:28:14:07, that hell is mentioned, but it is in the Christian
01:28:14:09, 01:28:20:09, version that another whole different kind of immorality is proposed, a worse kind of
01:28:20:11, 01:28:23:06, immorality yet, which is the wicked idea of
01:28:23:08, 01:28:26:21, non-resistance to evil and the deranged idea
01:28:26:23, 01:28:30:06, that we should love our enemies. Nothing,
01:28:30:08, 01:28:35:12, nothing could be more suicidal and immoral than that. We have to defend ourselves and
01:28:35:15, 01:28:39:02, our children and our civilization from our enemies.
01:28:39:04, 01:28:41:13, We have to learn to educate ourselves
01:28:41:16, 01:28:46:01, in a cold, steady dislike of them and a determination
01:28:46:04, 01:28:49:23, to encompass their destruction. Who here heard
01:28:50:01, 01:28:52:01, anyone after September 11th in holy orders
01:28:52:04, 01:28:54:18, actually say, oh, we must learn to love these people?
01:28:54:21, 01:28:57:02, Did they dare say that then?
01:28:57:04, 01:29:00:14, Of course not. They saw the emptiness and the
01:29:00:17, 01:29:03:18, futility and the immorality of what they would have
01:29:03:20, 01:29:06:07, been caught saying if they’d even tried it.
01:29:06:10, 01:29:07:21, We have to bear all this stuff in mind.
01:29:07:23, 01:29:10:17, This is not moral teaching at all. We have to survive our enemies.
01:29:10:19, 01:29:15:04, We have to learn to destroy them, especially because they too are motivated
01:29:15:06, 01:29:19:04, by the hectic, maniacal ideas of monotheism,
01:29:19:06, 01:29:23:14, which really seeks and yearns for the destruction
01:29:23:17, 01:29:26:10, of our planet and the end of days. That’s why it’s not
01:29:26:13, 01:29:32:14, moral. That’s why we have to outgrow it and defeat it.
01:29:32:16, 01:29:33:19, I have a feeling you want to comment.
01:29:33:22, 01:29:37:18, Well, I’d like to comment. First of all, I do not think that the principle of trying
01:29:37:20, 01:29:40:17, to love your enemies leads to these things at all.
01:29:40:19, 01:29:43:06, I think if anything leads to the obviation
01:29:43:08, 01:29:46:12, of violence, it does not mean we have to ignore moral issues.
01:29:46:15, 01:29:48:08, It means that we see these people
01:29:48:10, 01:29:53:18, as human beings, as someone who in effect bears the same flesh and blood as us.
01:29:53:20, 01:29:56:04, And it may mean that we want to try and resolve
01:29:56:06, 01:29:58:07, the issue saying we believe you are wrong.
01:29:58:09, 01:30:01:05, But it’s also trying to avoid dehumanization.
01:30:01:07, 01:30:04:13, And it seems to me this really is a very significant
01:30:04:15, 01:30:06:22, question I’d like to pursue that I may have
01:30:07:01, 01:30:09:07, misunderstood you, but what you seem to be
01:30:09:10, 01:30:12:19, proposing is to see your enemies in dehumanized form.
01:30:12:21, 01:30:15:07, And for me as a Christian, I could not
01:30:15:09, 01:30:18:03, do that because I have to see even my enemies as
01:30:18:05, 01:30:20:22, those who god has made and loved. And therefore,
01:30:21:00, 01:30:23:20, even though I may dislike them intensely, I
01:30:23:23, 01:30:26:23, have to show that love and compassion towards
01:30:27:01, 01:30:29:17, them and see them as human beings, not as
01:30:29:19, 01:30:34:03, the other, the enemy. I think really there’s more to this idea than you suggest.
01:30:34:05, 01:30:37:01, There’s no need to dehumanize people who are
01:30:37:03, 01:30:41:18, set on dehumanizing themselves and on the murder of others and on a cult of death.
01:30:41:20, 01:30:44:21, There’s no need to — they’ve done all that for themselves.
01:30:44:23, 01:30:47:19, Like someone once accused me of trying to assassinate his character and I said, no,
01:30:47:22, 01:30:50:19, your character committed suicide a long time ago.
01:30:50:21, 01:30:55:07, They’ve done the dehumanizing work for us, thanks, and they are fellow primates.
01:30:55:09, 01:30:57:16, Of course, there’s no question of redefining
01:30:57:18, 01:31:00:01, them as another species, but there is a very
01:31:00:03, 01:31:02:07, important question of whether we intend to
01:31:02:09, 01:31:05:01, assert our own values as superior to theirs and
01:31:05:03, 01:31:07:22, as worth defending against them. And christianity
01:31:08:01, 01:31:10:10, with the sickly relativism that you’ve stressed
01:31:10:13, 01:31:12:15, so often this evening disarms us for this
01:31:12:18, 01:31:14:21, very important struggle. That’s why the archbishop
01:31:14:23, 01:31:16:18, of canterbury is this week groveling at the
01:31:16:21, 01:31:19:01, feet of the mullahs in Iran and saying we
01:31:19:03, 01:31:21:09, should leave them alone and must try not to
01:31:21:11, 01:31:24:18, hurt their feelings, as he groveled to the feet of Saddam Hussein, as actually every
01:31:24:20, 01:31:27:08, Christian church has been doing in the recent
01:31:27:11, 01:31:30:20, past, saying, well, you know, faith is better than no faith.
01:31:30:22, 01:31:32:19, Any faith is better than none.
01:31:32:21, 01:31:35:09, They all agreed to condemn salman rushdie
01:31:35:12, 01:31:37:23, for blasphemy rather than the people who tried
01:31:38:01, 01:31:41:01, to kill him for money for writing a novel, for example.
01:31:41:04, 01:31:45:08, They all condemned the Danish cartoons because blasphemy against any faith
01:31:45:10, 01:31:47:08, is a defense to all. Could I interrupt you here on this one?
01:31:47:10, 01:31:48:18, Okay, well, this is very serious, ladies and
01:31:48:21, 01:31:50:06, gentlemen, because this stuff could kill you.
01:31:50:08, 01:31:52:05, Okay. Yes, Christopher, I’ve heard you yourself
01:31:52:07, 01:31:54:03, at one of my own conferences expound at great
01:31:54:05, 01:31:58:06, length on the Christian just war — at the Christian just war tradition.
01:31:58:08, 01:32:00:22, You seem to have left that whole rich tradition out of what you just covered.
01:32:01:00, 01:32:04:14, Yeah, well, I think the Christian just war tradition is a nonsensical tautology.
01:32:04:16, 01:32:07:04, It says you can only go to war when you’re sure you’re
01:32:07:06, 01:32:09:04, in the right, when you’re sure you can win,
01:32:09:06, 01:32:10:19, when you’re sure that the violence is going
01:32:10:21, 01:32:13:02, to be proportional and so on. You can’t know any of this.
01:32:13:05, 01:32:17:22, Aquinas couldn’t have known it, nor could the later thinkers about it like grotius.
01:32:17:23, 01:32:19:01, They couldn’t have known.
01:32:19:03, 01:32:22:05, They said, wouldn’t it be nice? It’s just wishful thinking again.
01:32:22:07, 01:32:24:12, I know just war when I see one.
01:32:24:15, 01:32:27:23, And we’re engaged in one now. And our faith-based
01:32:28:02, 01:32:31:16, forces are of as much use as the pope’s balls in this struggle.
01:32:31:19, 01:32:35:23, Well, we’re getting a little off course here. I know.
01:32:36:01, 01:32:39:20, I had a feeling it might come up. I wanted this to come up.
01:32:39:23, 01:32:42:07, You know, we’ve actually gone over time, and I
01:32:42:09, 01:32:44:19, feel like we could stay until about 10 o’clock.
01:32:44:21, 01:32:48:18, I’m not in a hurry. My mission statement is
01:32:48:21, 01:32:52:20, I won’t go if anyone can claim that I didn’t
01:32:52:22, 01:32:55:15, answer a question. Well, there are a lot of people here.
01:32:55:18, 01:33:02:19, Well, I’ll be on the steps outside having a smoke and a miniature.
01:33:02:21, 01:33:04:18, We were going to go 15 minutes over. Was there one more?
01:33:04:20, 01:33:06:22, Well, it was for you. But I’ll tell you what.
01:33:07:00, 01:33:09:00, I’ll let you comment on this, and then we’ll
01:33:09:03, 01:33:11:06, let professor graf make some final comments.
01:33:11:08, 01:33:13:09, And then I think we can be in agreement we
01:33:13:12, 01:33:15:05, should do this again. I think we just got started.
01:33:15:08, 01:33:16:19, Would you both be agreeable to doing that?
01:33:16:21, 01:33:17:14, Sure.
01:33:17:17, 01:33:25:06, You all would come back, wouldn’t you?
01:33:25:08, 01:33:34:11, Mr. Hitchens, why would scientific discoveries
01:33:34:14, 01:33:38:08, about the origin of the universe obviate the existence of god?
01:33:38:10, 01:33:41:16, Well, they don’t in and of themselves, but
01:33:41:19, 01:33:45:03, I just would submit. I really will be quick
01:33:45:05, 01:33:48:08, this time, and I know I’ve been a little bit
01:33:48:10, 01:33:51:08, verbose up until now. The likelihood that
01:33:51:10, 01:33:54:03, what Edwin hubble saw through that telescope,
01:33:54:05, 01:33:56:18, the red light escaping at speeds that none
01:33:56:21, 01:34:00:03, of us here are capable of really imagining
01:34:00:06, 01:34:03:14, towards the ultimate expansion and collapse
01:34:03:16, 01:34:06:14, of the universe and the heat death, that all
01:34:06:16, 01:34:09:10, that happened so we could be sitting here,
01:34:09:12, 01:34:16:12, is to me in the very, very highest degree improbable. That a process of evolution by
01:34:16:15, 01:34:19:01, natural selection just on our own tiny little
01:34:19:04, 01:34:21:10, planet, which in its own tiny little solar
01:34:21:13, 01:34:24:01, system is the only one on which life can be supported.
01:34:24:03, 01:34:26:23, Everywhere else, just in our little system, all the other
01:34:27:02, 01:34:30:10, rocks are either much too hot or much too cold to support life,
01:34:30:13, 01:34:32:15, as is much of our planet, which we know has
01:34:32:18, 01:34:34:19, for a long time been, not recently either,
01:34:34:22, 01:34:39:11, on a climatic knife edge and which is still cooling.
01:34:39:13, 01:34:42:10, Only one. And on this planet, 99.
01:34:42:12, 01:34:46:03, 8% of every species that ever evolved died out.
01:34:46:05, 01:34:49:11, This is an extraordinary way, I think, to
01:34:49:13, 01:34:52:22, make sure that homo sapiens comes to Georgetown.
01:34:53:01, 01:34:56:12, It is only the most extraordinarily self-centered
01:34:56:14, 01:34:59:14, species could imagine that all this was going
01:34:59:17, 01:35:04:14, on for our sake. That’s why I don’t like people saying that their religious faith
01:35:04:17, 01:35:07:00, is modest or humble. It’s the reverse. It’s
01:35:07:02, 01:35:11:08, unbelievably solipsistic. And that’s why you get people apparently
01:35:11:11, 01:35:14:04, abject, much too abject for my taste, like Mother Teresa.
01:35:14:07, 01:35:16:10, “Oh, I’m so humble I can hardly bother to feed
01:35:16:12, 01:35:19:04, myself, you know, but out of my way because i’m
01:35:19:06, 01:35:21:20, on a mission for god.” No. This is arrogance,
01:35:21:22, 01:35:24:07, as a matter of fact, and it claims to know
01:35:24:09, 01:35:26:23, what it cannot know. I could say that Einstein
01:35:27:02, 01:35:29:16, was right when he said, “the miracle is of
01:35:29:18, 01:35:33:06, the natural order. The miracle is there are no miracles.
01:35:33:09, 01:35:35:10, ” Understand this paradox.
01:35:35:13, 01:35:38:22, The natural order doesn’t interrupt itself.
01:35:39:01, 01:35:41:04, The sun doesn’t stand still at midday.
01:35:41:06, 01:35:44:00, God doesn’t catch a child as the kid falls out
01:35:44:03, 01:35:46:11, of a window or any old heel lepers randomly.
01:35:46:13, 01:35:48:21, And none of that ever happens. The miracle is
01:35:48:23, 01:35:52:06, there’s a force that holds it all together that’s
01:35:52:08, 01:35:55:06, consistent and unvarying. That’s wonderful.
01:35:55:08, 01:35:57:12, Okay. He may show there’s a mind somewhere
01:35:57:14, 01:35:59:22, in the universe, but to say we know what that
01:36:00:01, 01:36:02:20, mind is, to move from the deist position to
01:36:02:22, 01:36:05:14, the theist one, we know what god wants us
01:36:05:17, 01:36:10:21, to eat or not eat. We know in what positions he wants us to make love or with whom.
01:36:10:23, 01:36:15:06, We know his instructions on it is an unbelievable
01:36:15:08, 01:36:18:23, piece of conceit. And in my opinion, it’s
01:36:19:02, 01:36:22:08, the reason why I may be a very poor spokesman
01:36:22:11, 01:36:25:10, for my side of this argument, but I think
01:36:25:12, 01:36:28:03, anyone who thinks about it has to vote that
01:36:28:05, 01:36:30:21, given the amount of uncertainty that we have
01:36:30:23, 01:36:34:01, and given how much we now know, how much more
01:36:34:04, 01:36:37:10, we know about how little we know, the definition
01:36:37:13, 01:36:39:23, of education and our civilization, the only
01:36:40:01, 01:36:42:13, people who have to lose in this argument are
01:36:42:15, 01:36:46:09, those who say they do know and who claim, “yes, I do know what god wants.
01:36:46:11, 01:36:49:02, I do think he sent a son. I do think there was a resurrection.
01:36:49:04, 01:36:50:04, I do think there’s salvation.
01:36:50:06, 01:36:53:19, ” Claiming to know things they cannot conceivably know.
01:36:53:22, 01:36:56:15, I mean, to put it in a mild way, if Dr.
01:36:56:17, 01:36:59:06, McGrath has such extraordinary sources of information
01:36:59:08, 01:37:01:06, as the ones he’s claimed to have available
01:37:01:08, 01:37:05:04, to him, I can’t understand why he’s only occupying a chair at Oxford university.
01:37:05:06, 01:37:09:16, Well, if I could respond to that, I think. With the knowledge you’ve got, you should
01:37:09:18, 01:37:15:18, be a real man. And I’m afraid you don’t know any more than I do about whether there
01:37:15:21, 01:37:17:15, was ever a Jesus of nazareth, a resurrection,
01:37:17:18, 01:37:19:05, a miracle, a virgin birth, or anything.
01:37:19:07, 01:37:22:02, You couldn’t know any more than I do. You can’t.
01:37:22:04, 01:37:23:14, You just claim that you do.
01:37:23:17, 01:37:28:07, I’m afraid that that means, I think, that you lose this round.
01:37:28:09, 01:37:33:03, Well, if I could respond to deal with the
01:37:33:05, 01:37:38:15, first point before we come on to that second one.
01:37:38:17, 01:37:42:09, I don’t think it’s at all solipsistic to say, “let’s reflect on why we are here.
01:37:42:11, 01:37:45:01, Let’s reflect on why there is something rather than nothing.
01:37:45:04, 01:37:46:09, ” It’s to ask a very important
01:37:46:12, 01:37:50:14, question about how the universe came into being. Why is there something rather than
01:37:50:17, 01:37:53:10, nothing? I mean, for wittgenstein, that was a hugely important question.
01:37:53:12, 01:37:55:22, And it seems to me to be entirely right to answer that
01:37:56:00, 01:37:57:23, question, or at least to try and answer it.
01:37:58:02, 01:38:00:23, On my own status, I mean, I appreciate very
01:38:01:01, 01:38:03:22, much the compliment you pay. But I’m simply
01:38:04:00, 01:38:06:20, making the point that all of us are interpreters
01:38:06:23, 01:38:09:16, of what we observe. I made it very, very clear.
01:38:09:19, 01:38:12:02, I was not making any claims to special knowledge.
01:38:12:04, 01:38:14:08, I was looking at what I saw, what others say.
01:38:14:10, 01:38:17:13, I interpreted it in this way. I claim no privilege.
01:38:17:16, 01:38:22:01, I say it is my judgment that this is the best explanation and it means this.
01:38:22:03, 01:38:25:05, And I’m open to challenge on this, as you have challenged
01:38:25:07, 01:38:29:23, me. But I’m not claiming anything special. I’m saying there are public events there.
01:38:30:02, 01:38:32:23, They are open to interpretation, as they were at the time.
01:38:33:01, 01:38:36:05, And the issue really is, what is the best explanation of those?
01:38:36:07, 01:38:38:11, And I think that is a legitimate debate.
01:38:38:14, 01:38:40:16, I’ve made it very clear what my conclusion is.
01:38:40:18, 01:38:42:22, I’ve made it clear it is a matter of faith and that
01:38:43:00, 01:38:45:11, I cannot prove this. But I’ve also suggested
01:38:45:13, 01:38:49:17, that whatever judgment we make on this is actually a matter of faith. And therefore,
01:38:49:20, 01:38:51:21, while I’m very happy to be challenged on this,
01:38:51:23, 01:38:54:01, I think I’m still entitled to say that this
01:38:54:04, 01:38:55:21, seems to me to be the best way of making
01:38:55:23, 01:39:00:14, sense of it and live my life out on its basis.
01:39:00:17, 01:39:01:14, Thank you.
01:39:01:17, 01:39:24:14, [Applause]
01:39:24:17, 01:39:30:16, Ladies and gentlemen, this has been taped. It’s been videotaped. There will be a DVD.
01:39:30:18, 01:39:34:13, It will be up on the Internet site of the ethics and public policy
01:39:34:15, 01:39:37:09, center, we think, by sometime next week. So we encourage you
01:39:37:11, 01:39:39:09, to go to that site. And if you want to watch
01:39:39:11, 01:39:41:23, it again or tell your friends about it, feel free.
01:39:42:02, 01:39:43:07, Again, I won’t underline.
01:39:43:10, 01:39:44:20, I think we ought to do this again.
01:39:44:23, 01:39:45:20, Sure thing.
01:39:45:23, 01:39:45:23, [Applause]
01:39:45:23, 01:39:47:20, [End]
01:39:47:23, 01:39:49:23, [End]
